A question for Don

[joethelayperson]

Hi Don

addressing this question specifically to you as you seem pretty knowledgeable about magick :) and as such you are probably the best qualified (though all input is welcome) to answer. I was going to email you direct but I thought that this question might be of interest to others on here and as such worth posting

Right here goes:


Sigils (Austin Osman Spare)

How effective are they in changing habits and bring about desired results and more importantly in your experience as a therapist, how good are they say , in comparison to Hypnosis etc

as a sideline and for information purposes of anybody not familiar with Magick I offer the following brief outline:

Sigils are graphic or auditory representations of a DESIRE or WISH that are compressed and then sent off into the 'ether' for the results to manifest.
Grant Morrison at www.grantmorrison.com ......Pop Magic parts 1 and 2 explains the technique a lot better than I ever could. Sexual content is discussed for the more squeamish.


for me:
Morrison for me is a bit too GUNG HO and I would suggest that anybody reading this material think of two things that if memory serves me right , he does not address on his homepage:

1: I personally believe that the Intent statement should be worded positively....much like Hypnotic suggestions. Avoid NOT and DONT etc

2: Morrison does not (imo) give enough credence to the ramifications of Sigils. For example, if you wished for money and somebody died to leave you an inheritence then presumably any sane person would think that this was not worth the price of casting such a spell



Don, I know this is not really an ideal forum and I will probably be flamed for posting such a post on a Hypnosis board but I wondered where you thought Hypnosis and Magick overlapped and more importantly WHERE THEY EACH HAD THEIR OWN STRENGTHS in relation to changing behaviour etc


I can understand that Sigils are limited in that once cast, the intent is supposed to be forgotten or repressed. This obviously limits the effectiveness for something desired greatly


Most recently, I did a little picture that helped me with my gambling addiction. Now whether this picture was the impetus that caused the required change or whether it was just fear of Pauline seeing the latest bank statement, I cannot say but there has definately been a marked improvement in my behaviour over the last week with regard to gambling.


Seeing that you are very knowledgeable about Magick, I was wondering how effective you believe Sigils are in affecting permanent change?

I know that Sigils' intent is supposed to be forgotten after firing them off but once the new behaviour has been manifested, I suppose recollection at that point in time is okay as the new behaviour has already manifested?


Have you ever suggested Magick to a client or do you believe that this would make you appear a 'crank' in their eyes? Presumably if you had a good level of rapport and knew that their belief system would handle such a suggestion it would be okay but obviously, in our litigious culture, you must have had to be careful with your interventions

Any anecdotal stories would be greatly appreciated. As I said, I know that this isn't a MAGICK forum but there is overlap between Hypnosis and Magick and Sigils are probably one of the the major areas where the two fields meet closest (in my limited opinion). The whole premise of Sigils is that

a: You are bypassing the conscious mind

b: You are communing with something greater than yourself

c: Both!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The symbol I chose to accompany my post (emoticon) is in dedication to Mr Spare. He used this a lot in his paintings as it alluded to his favourite method of launching his Sigils (masturbation)

[Don]

You question is rather specific, and I think it would be good to generalize it here and give others a bit of information.

First, if you wish to learn Spare's techniques, I would respectfully suggest that you also consider reading Spare's original works rather than depending upon someone else's interpretation.

The idea of "compression" is just one example of Spare's techniques. Another, which I consider superior, is the use of designing a sigil through automatic drawing.

Both techniques are too complex to describe fully here, but let me give the idea: you can make a graphic image which represents a concept and that even though your conscious does not understand it, your unconscious will understand it. In other words, like hypnosis, it bypasses the conscious and the critical factor of the mind.

However, it is one thing to create the symbol, it is another thing to get it embedded into the unconscious. There is the problem. Simply looking at it doesn't seem to work. Rather, you need to get into an altered state of consciousness so that the symbol can be emplanted into the unconscious. It may be that being hypnotized and looking at the symbol may be very effective.

Now, here is a more generalized thing which is one of the reasons I like hypnotherapy. With traditional Western medical practice, there is one cure (or a small set of techniques) for each problem. With hypnotherapy, there is not only a large number of techniques (as well as affiliated techniques), but as Erickson showed, you can literally create techniques to fit the needs of your client. A simple way to describe this would be that hypnotherapy is patient centered while standard Western medicine it technology centered. IMO, you should use whatever works for your client.

I find hypnotherapy to be very effective. However, if it is clear that something else will help a client, I absolutely will use it. I do not introduce such Sparian techniques with anyone currently. However, if someone were very involved with Spare-oriented magick, I might include it.

[joethelayperson]

thanks Don

I would have posted Spare's work but to be honest, it is beyond me.
I have been dabbling in Magick literature and the occassional practice for awhile now and I still fog over reading Spare.

I don't actually agree with all Grant Morrison's ideas as he is a Chaos Magician and in my opinion, does not give enough care for the ramifications of his actions.
If memory serves me right, he does not broach the subject of divination to see whether the magickal act would harm anybody and he is a little too GUNG HO, for my tastes. Whilst he advocates chatting up Gods and tries to instill how great magick is, he doesn't in my opinion stress how it could become an obsession or scare you to death if you are not ready for something.

That said, I believe that his POP magic articles are easily accessible and a reasonable introduction to the idea of Sigils.

Don, I admire your ability to understand Spare's work.....I struggle with Crowley and I find Spare's writing even harder to decipher. I like his pictures.....I believe a lot of his magickal works are encoded in the pictures. There was a story I read recently that detailed how every new Years Eve, a picture that Spare painted comes to life!!!!......the picture is of Spare facing Spare and allegedly they end up arguing. Totally bizarre

As for your comments about utilising magickal techniques with a client already predisposed to this area, that was unexpected. I honestly thought you would either deny doing so or totally reject the idea out of some 'never the twain shall meet' type thought

Just goes to show how wrong I can be. I was excited to read that you would consider such treatment (with the clients' permission) as a modality you would employ. The similarities between Sigils and Hypnotic Suggestion was too obvious for me not to commment upon. Again, I know this is a hypnosis forum and I did not mean to deviate to far from the parameters but i do see the overlap here.

The launching of the Sigil (suggestion) being concomitent with an altered state (gnosis) to me is littel different than traditional trance

altered state-suggestion


Admittedly it is more limited than a fact to face therapeutic encounter but the rudiments at a simple level are very very similar


thanks Don, enjoyed your post immensley as it really surprised me

[joethelayperson]

I have decided to delete this reply

not because it was in anyway wrong but it was going too far off topic and may have put people off the board due to it's esoteric nature.

(anybody interested in Magick and what this post detailed, do a Google search for 'Fotamecus')

Anyway, sorry Don. I will email you privately to avoid this board going too far off topic. You probably know this info anyway but I think in the small chance that you don't, you may find it of interest (I hope)

apologies also to Skip and Dr James

Joe

[DrMattJames]

Joe,

Why delete it. There is an appropriate place here in this forum, and I moved the thread for you. I (and I think Don would agree) would love to have more discussion about esotericism. That is why we have a forum for it.

Thanks,
Matt

[joethelayperson]

thanks Matt (I hope I am not being overly familiar)

I will contribute more if it is welcome and again cheers for the invite

[joethelayperson]

You guys don't sleep!

it must be the early hours over there.

Anyway thanks for the new board

for anybody who is looking at this and wondering what we are on about, FOTAMECUS was a spell/Sigil that took on a life of it's own

it was originally launched to compress time for it's conjurer. He asked that a boring car journey would seem to take a lot less time and it WORKED. He told a friend about this and with the subsequent imbueing of more power, the Sigil became semi autonomous; what is known as a Servitor

Over time the Servitor acquired more and more of a personality for itself and became an autonomous Egregore and I believe that at last checking the FOTAMECUS entity had achieved Godform status, pretty powerful in it's own right and totally independant. Fotamecus can be called upon to stretch or condense time and he hates Chronos the lord of Ordered or 'objective' time.

I am not doing this justice and I will post a couple of links that explain the whole shebang a lot better later on.....gotta go now as my father and I are off shopping

In the meantime , anybody who cannot wait might like to do a google search for

Servitors, Egregores and Godforms (the website is Chaosmatrix.org)

this explains the whole thing better than i ever could

[joethelayperson]

Hi again gentlemen and ladies


Been mulling over some of my points that I made earlier regarding Sigils and such

I think it was Jung who said something like "suggestion is no substitute for working through the problem and a new synergetic understanding being reached"

(I know this is nothing like the original quote but I believe the essence is the same)

This got me thinking about Sigils and such. Do they just affect us on a level of suggestibility only or do they reach a level that makes us face our deepest issues?

I know it depends on your stance about whether magick operates intrapsychically (if there is such a word!) or whether it affects the universe as a whole (or both)

I have edited this as I realise what a pompous ass I sound at times and how a little knowledge in my hands can be a dangerous thing

[joethelayperson]

www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php


loads of interesting articles about Fotamecus and other weird and wonderful stuff


hope you all enjoy




Joe

[joethelayperson]

I think or at least I hope I am now in more of a position to post what I actually meant to convey

Here goes:

as I understand it

Sigils are embedded into the unconscious/'magickal ether' by bypassing the conscious mind (dependant upon your preferred way of understanding the phenomona)

As long as the conscious mind is unaware of the content when launching the Sigil, the effects should manifest, much like a hypnotic suggestion.

Now I always attempt to do a divination before firing off a Sigil, this I would presume is similar to a NLP ecology check (or if you prefer , asking a higher power for advice on the ramifications of such an act)

If I get a negative response, I decide that Sigil should not be launched and discard it.


(I'm struggling to find the words here but please bare with me)


Okay, so we have an ecology check which presumably at some level takes in the effects of the Sigil on

a: myself (karma)
b: others
c: the universe as a whole


If we get the go ahead, we fire the Sigil and using the intrapsychic model, we await for the results to manifest. Am I right in assuming that IF this Sigil works......not only has the Sigil acted as a suggestion but a part of my psyche (via the divination and agreement) has agreed to change at a fundamental level. The agreement that the outcome is okay, could conceivably be taken as an agreement that some fundamental change has or will take place

So in effect, the Sigil is not only a suggestion but an agreement that something deeper has changed?


if I were to fire of a Sigil that asked for a CHANGE IN MY BELIEFS OR THOUGHT PROCESSES, I have a few questions that instantly spring to mind (see the bottom of this post)

I know I am getting too hung up on this but I am fascinated with the linkages and crossover between Magick and Psychology.

For a rudimentary change, I could imagine a suggestion working just fine but something more inherent and deeper encoded in the psyche, would I presume have to go beyond mere suggestion (not that suggestion is ineffectual but I know about secondary gain etc and how unresolved issues have a habit of manifesting elsewhere)

For example, you could request a Sigil to make you more brave but at a deeper level, this perceived cowardice on your part might be protecting you from getting beaten up by an abusive spouse.
The divination would highlight any Unconscious motives for holding onto such behaviour and ensure you did not rush into a potentially fatal confrontation.

Presumably and using the same model, if you got the okay to go ahead from your Divination, then your unconscious would be in agreement that the situation had reached an intolerable level and confrontation was necessary.

In your experiences, would this newfound bravery remain in place and say you were unlucky enough to meet another potential abuser, would the new behaviour and inner belief last; OR would the Sigil have the failiure potential of a suggestion and old behaviours and weakness might re-manifest?

(I know this is all conjecture and each situation is different but I am basically asking whether the results of Sigils are permanent.....or short term)

getting back to the Hypnosis/ magick parallels:



So .....presumably, one could take the act of a divination granting permission as an ecology check and an agreement from the unconscious or even the collective unconscious that the new behaviours wished for are now ecologically acceptable to the Universe or your deep inner mind, irrespective of the longevity of these new behaviours.

Sorry for the fixation but it is something that I am giving a lot of thought to at the moment




my questions are basically IF YOU WERE TO CAST A SIGIL FOR A CHANGE IN BELIEF OR THOUGHT PROCESSING:

1: Do Sigils and their firing produce permanent changes?

2: Would you agree that a divination on the outcome, highlights any Unconscious resistence to change?

3: If we get the Go Ahead from the divination, can we assume that as well as SUGGESTION, something deeper is reframing in the psyche....the core belief etc


cheers for baring with me ....... hope it made sense

Joe

[Don]

my questions are basically IF YOU WERE TO CAST A SIGIL FOR A CHANGE IN BELIEF OR THOUGHT PROCESSING:

1: Do Sigils and their firing produce permanent changes?

2: Would you agree that a divination on the outcome, highlights any Unconscious resistence to change?

3: If we get the Go Ahead from the divination, can we assume that as well as SUGGESTION, something deeper is reframing in the psyche....the core belief etc




1) I had a teacher of Taoism who told me "All things that are born die. All things that are not born do not die."

A change induced by anything is a "born" change. Therefore it can certainly die. If you do a sigil to produce a change to encourage picking your nose in public, it could certainly work. Then you meet a gorgeous person and you find out that person would like to get to know you better if you stopped picking your nose. Immediaely you work to stop picking your nose. The change "born" with the sigil dies and a new change appears.

The mind always works for what it conceives to be the betterment, health, and safety of the individual (even if it is wrong). When it gets information that something is better, healthier, or safer for the individual, it will change.

Calling any change "permanent" is a misnomer. It will only be permanent until something comes to overpower it.

2) I would agree that part of what such a divination would reveal would be any important unconscious resistances to change.

3) I would contend that real magick goes beyond suggestion and mind manipulation--what I refer to as the "psychologization of magick." The "go ahead," as you put it, certainly signifies that there are no psychological blocks and perhaps opens the mind for suggestions which are part of but not exclusively responsible for the magick achieving a desired goal.

I hope this helps...

[Joe]

yes Don it helps enormously

thanks

I am offline at home at the moment so this is the only forum I can contact you or others via


been reading about Burroughs and Gysin's cut up method of tapng sounds and interspercing noises to achieve magickal ends

very interesting. I am looking for some LSD and intend to do a Robert Anton Wilson with LSD, hypnosis tapes, Sigils and potentially this cut up method, to achieve deep psychological changes

At the moment there seems a drought on the LSD front and I haven't been able to get a tape recorder with the sound quality necessary for my tapes production but it is a work in progress and necissitated by absolutely NO money whatsoever and huge huge upheavals in my private life

[Don]

I had the honor of meetings with Dr. Time twice and RAW several times. I've also worked with a Gysin Dream Machine.

As a representative of this board I would recommend that anyone not use drugs which were not prescribed legally for them by a licensed MD.

As an individual I would warn that the LSD available today is often not safe. Dosages are often anywhere from 1/2 to 1/10 of the common doses from when LSD was legal, and to make up for the lack of potency it is often "cut" with methamphetamines, strychnine or other dangerous substances. If you have any problems or suspected problems with your heart, lungs, liver, etc., I would strongly urge caution.

Further, as Dr. Leary has pointed out, there are three things which determine the effect of the experience: dose, set, and setting. Because almost all LSD is illegal, it is hard to do anything other than guess at the dose you are receiving. Were I in your position and wanted to try it out, I would get several doses and first take about 1/4, wait a month and take about 1/2, and then wait another month before taking a full dose. However, I could not legally recommend this to anyone.

As far as the setting, be sure you are in a very positive environment with lots of water, food, and "toys" to play with. Ideally you should have a guide, someone who has done this before, who can watch over you and help you for 10-12 hours.

Finally, if you are in a bad mood this will effect the experience. I would suggest some nice music and meditation for 1/2 hour before you dose yourself and during the first hour...if I were going to suggest anything at all. However, I would instead suggest working with Gysin's Dream Machine or a light/sound machine, both of which are legal and can result in many of the same experiences.

[Unregistered]

thanks Don for the advice

I will see if I can hold of a Gysin machine

or another consideration is I may buy some mushrooms of the Magickal variety and utilise them instead

cheers for the concern and the advice

Joe

[Annie]

Hi Don,

The Info you wrote about " drugs " was Good; and

I trust you really, are meaning * well *, entering into Joe's conditioned map/model of his world, while
repeating about the " IL-legality of LSD, and other hallucinogenic chemicals ".

But consider, carefully : Even as Skip & I have been encouragingly steering Joe away from such (harmful methods = however he is short-term rationalizing them away ) ... this being a Public-board, your lsd-RECIPE is here available to *children*. Yeah, I know they can get it just about anywhere, anyway - IF that is what they want.

Yet, do you - really - want such at this site, 2 ? - hm, maybe it's OK, after all .
~

God, I am sure glad my daughter never had a desire, or need, to Experiment with : alcohol, drugs, stealing and Pregnancy, growing as a child.


Annie

[Unregistered]

hi Annie

I would never advocate drug use to anybody and I hope I have never been taken as doing so

I admit I have taken drugs and would for the purpose of hoepfully improving my mental state. I would not do drugs (except for alcohol, which I know is still a drug) for recreational purposes and I do read all the available literature before taking on anything new

As for drugs being discussed on here......sadly that is a fact of life and whilst not a parent myself and not faced with the agony of worrying about my offspring, I believe that access to information should not be restricted and sadly in todays world, most teenagers know more than the adults about drugs and their usage anyway

I try to educate myself about the effects and side effects of anything I ingest and this is why I would NEVER advocate drug usage. That said, if somebody is determined to take a substance then I believe that it is imperative that they educate themselves as to the dangers and risks involved

Prohibiting information never works and just adds to the mystique but at least with available information, then HOPEFULLY the individual can make the best informed choice possible

That is just my opinion and I admit that I do justify my actions more than I should


I do understand your concern and I hope I do not sound like I am advocating drug use. I usually mention the importance of set and setting if somebody is determined to take a substance and I did mention the illegal status....if not in this post then in a similar one on the hypnosis forum

Sorry if I caused any offence

Joe x

[Don]

The following is my personal opinion and may not be reflective of the position of this board.

One of the problems in the U.S. is the current set of absurdity and lies being put out by the government in an attempt to terrorize people in their current war on drug users (it couldn't be a war on drugs since I haven't seen any drugs with Uzis or RPGs). But the result is that people are turning to people with no training and/or experience concerning drugs for information and are getting information which is false or incomplete.

I don't think I said anything that was factually incorrect in my reply. If I did, please let me know so I can correct it.

One of the tennets of Ericksonian hypnotherapy is the belief that clients are absolutely perfect as they are with the knowledge and tools they have. Part of what such hypnotherapy involves is giving a client the tools and knowledge to be able to make desired changes. It is a belief in the excellence of the subconscious. I believe that all people, even children have that excellence.

I would rather give factual information than ignore it. I would rather than people of all ages have the facts and then give them the honor and respect to allow them to make their own choices based on facts and not on fantasies. I'm not saying that you are advising ignoring the truth or giving out false information, but I do believe that people can handle the truth.

For over 10,000 years, people have experimented with mind altering substances and techniques. Today, most of those outlets have been banned by governments, but millions of people still want to use various means of altering their consciousness using everything from drumming and movement to sexuality and entheogens. They use these techniques for everything from fun, to self-medication to overcome mental or physical pain, to direct contact with the divine. We can try to avoid this or overcome it, but success in this is as likely as people overcoming a need for food and water.

You said you are glad your daughter never had an unwanted pregnancy (at least not that you know). But there are young people today who really think that oral sex is not sex, that you can't get pregnant from your first intercourse, or that you can't get an STD if you and your partner wash daily. The amount of misinformation out there is horrendous. Respectfully, I'm not going to extend the ignorance.

Joe, I must respectfully disagree with you. While it is true that some teens know more than adults about drugs, the vast majority of teens only have street knowledge about them. Often, that knowledge may be inaccurate, incomplete, deceptive or dangerous.

However, that isn't limited to teens. I've seen books on enthogenic mycology which correctly differentiate between amanita muscaria and amanita pantherina, but give an old and dangerously mistaken treatment for amanita muscaria that actually exacerbates the effects of tha alkoloids--it's a treatment for amanita pantherina overdose, not for amanita muscaria.

I did not bring up the question of drugs, but I did respond to it. I would still answer any question to the best of my ability on any topic, and I would make clear if I don't know the answer.

[Unregistered]

excellent post Don

agreed, I didn't articulate myself very well before


I agree that teenagers have only 'street culture' explainations of drugs and their effects but I still believe they are at least as qualified as the average parent who only has the media and Governmental scare mongering to go on

I agree totally that information should be freely available and that the best way is not prohibition (that rarely works) but EDUCATION

Once the floodgates are opened ....it is difficult to stem the tide but at least with the information being available, the chances of unexpected side effects is somewhat reduced


Thanks Don

excellent and informative post. I actually believed that the Strychnine in LSD was an urban myth but as I have no chemistry or anecdotal knowledge to the contrary .....I will take it as correct


Cheers


Joe

[Annie]

Hi Joe,

in summary, you said : As for drugs being discussed on here ... sadly that is a fact of life and whilst not a parent myself and not faced with the agony of worrying about my offspring, I believe that access to information should not be restricted and sadly in todays world, most teenagers know more than the adults about drugs and their usage anyway

Prohibiting information never works and just adds to the mystique but at least with available information, then HOPEFULLY the individual can make the best informed choice possible That is just my opinion and I admit that I do justify my actions more than I should .....

I do understand your concern and I hope I do not sound like I am advocating drug use. Sorry if I caused any offence "


Joe, neither did you cause any offense, nor did I choose being, or taking, offense, I assure you :) . Either is useless & pointless.

And I agree with you re : " Prohibiting information, only adding to the mystique, never works. Access to information should not be restricted "; which
is why I said to Don : " The Info you wrote about Drugs was Good ".

Actually, I can recall how so we have alot of ' Medical, Societal, Psychological, & Educational - experts ' giving kids & parents terribly dysfunctional advice, about alla this schtuff. How counter-productive merely " TELLing your kids to stay-AWAY from alcohol, drugs, sex, and each other, including much of the time, their parents ".

Now, nobody in our home drinks alcohol, smokes, or uses drugs; so - she got a Healthy beginning that way. Plus my daughter, never having spent a day in either " day-care, or pre-school Businesses", instead got blessed playing with lotsa other kids whose parents chose staying close-by and we were all friends together. Next, before she entered
Kindergarten,
one of the 1st. things I shared repeatedly, was to sit down with her, and encourage her with : " If, at any time, you wanna try experimenting with anything anybody tells you is GOOD for you, that is unfamiliar to you or that you aren't sure about or that makes you feel the tinest bit uncomfortable, please come and share it with *me 1st*, ok ? So, we can talk about it, and I can help you understand it better. " ... and sure enough, every day we shared all the new things she had been exposed to : (that being 1 crucible many parents don't seem to be able to follow-thru on.
Leaving too much to " chance ", too many choose not being involved in the day-to-day life of their children. There is too much Emotional-distancing going on, even amongst many mothers who do stay Home with their kids for the most part.
* Children both need, and want, our positive and encouraging attention. They thrive on it, truely *.

I chose being physically-present with her at her school for 1.5 yrs., before entrusting her to the Well-keeping of this environment.
And
sure enough, it wasn't but 7 weeks later, she came home unusually quiet, announcing : " I can't eat, mommy - I'm sick "; so - like any concerned parent would, I continued asking questions, until the sordid truth was revealed :
the " Mental Health " (no less) counselor as part of her gifted-class in grade 2, had said " Now, you don't need to tell your parents everything going on including what we teach you here, because parents don't understand and so they like to interfere with the good work we're doing here. AND also, you'll just get confused, and that wouldn't be good. And besides, you'll be in big trouble if you do tell them " ...
Wellll,
I assured her most profusely that she would NOT get into any kind of trouble * keeping communications Open between us *; and so - she shared ..... And the very next day, momma Annie promptly went to the school and insisted on a meeting with said Counselor, the Principal, the School nurse and her Teachers : wherein (with daughter present), I asked the Counselor to repeat what she had told the class just yesterday, tho - she chose altering the story. My daughter, raising her hand first, said : " Who taught you to lie like this ?, because that is Not what you said yesterday. Mommy, can I say what she told us, right here ? " And I said " Sure, go right ahead ". Well, the counselor turned red, followed by others; before
they were quietely, yet decisively, informed that " your Code-of-secrecy is dangerous, dysfunctional and totally unacceptable. And I will not tolerate her being abused via those kinds of brainwashings. I expect at all times that you will *encourage children feeling FREE discussing whatever is on their minds with their parents, or whatever other adult they may feel comfortable with*. Do I make myself clear ?, or do I need to take further action ? " ...

Then, she chose being home/UN--schooled before
choosing to return to Public school in Hi-school. Well, before she went back, I commented: " You know, you're gonna be inundated with alcohol, cigarettes, drugs of both Legal plus Ilegal kinds, Sexual invitations, plus (all the Governmental brainwashings : that I will just have to trust that how you've been imprinted thus far will protect you from the more Negative underminings of how they intend to re-write the wonderful person you are. I can no longer protect you, as I have to date. Soon, you will be more & more, on your own. ... And I pray, and trust, you will be fine.
Now - about the alcohol and cigarettes : do you, at 14 now, wanna experience what it's like to feel " Drunk" ?, or what " Smoking " feels like ?, because I would rather that you experience it in the safety of our home, than do it out with other kids in God-only-knows what circumstances, that can very well end-up with you being found Dead. "
and
she said : " Mom, have you lost your mind ! - lol . Why, on earth now, would I want to clutter my brain, and body, with that trash. And no, not only am I not going to " do Drugs ", I intend to become a " Peer Counselor " - hoping to help other kids, with whatever their challenges are. So, don't worry - but yes, I appreciate your concern. "


Anyway, this re-counting is my way of assuring you that Yes : *Don openly sharing whatever correct Info he may have on the " dangerous risks " of drugs is just fine.*


The 2 points I felt uncomfortable with, were : " Were I in your position and wanted to try it out, I would get several doses and first take about 1/4, wait a month and take about 1/2, and then wait another month before taking a full dose. However, I could not legally recommend this to anyone.

As far as the setting, be sure you are in a very positive environment with lots of water, food, and "toys" to play with. Ideally you should have a guide, someone who has done this before, who can watch over you and help you for 10-12 hours. "

so, it was this whole Idea of " Hell yes : get stoned on Drugs, while Masturbating " ... that bothers me.
~


Now, Joe, here's something to contemplate : what if you were to just Positively-hallucinate ... Create ... Stack ... Chain ... Test ... and fire that resourceful Anchor, or 2 or 3 simultaneously :), whenever you wanted to feel *on top of the world* ? :D

Do you know how to do that, for yourself - yet ?

Skip can teach you how really Well, I am sure.


Annie

[Unregistered]

hi Annie

I actually don't want to take drugs for the high.....I am just wishing to experiment upon myself and hopefully open myself up more to therapeutic suggestions. Hypnosis to date has not had the desired effect and I am desperate, in pain and too 'broke' to afford therapy. Not only that I cannot get any enthusiasm for therapy after my experiences to date


I have a grasp of Anchors.....never really tried to consciously use them on myself, though obviously we anchor ourselves unconsciously continuously


No I am sorry that I have burdened you al with my woes and whilst I would take the drug if I could find it, there seems to be none to be found so it is all conjecture anyway

You sound like a wonderful parent and your daughter has every reason to be proud of you


Joe

[Annie]

Hi Don,

Previously, you said : " You said you are glad your daughter never had an unwanted pregnancy (at least not that you know) ...

In response to which, I brought up the Organization you chose deleting also because you judged it as an: ' an attack, irrelevant to the discussion. '

Now, I understand you have the Power to decide what is, vs. is not " relevant " however you choose perceiving the words & their meanings, or as it suits you. But I honestly don't understand where you went with this.
Perhaps you can explain it, better ?

In exchange, allow me to give you another possible Interpretation of what you chose writing, with : " You said you are glad your daughter never had an unwanted pregnancy (at least not that you know)... " :
besides " Medically-performed abortions ", there are also untold
millions of "Spontanous abortions" which women experience; and
some of the women I have helped for other various "symptoms" have disclosed feeling GUILTY as well over having Spontaneously-aborted 1, or more, of their children because -
1. " it was just really in-convenient (for my partner, &/or myself) becoming pregnant right at that time ",
or
2. " I was afraid of the Huge amount of pain I could experience in giving Birth",
or
3. " I didn't feel emotionally ready to welcome a child ",
or
4. " I don't, really, want to participate in Devotedly loving as a parent for the rest of my life ",
or
5. any number of these combinations, as well as other " Medical - reasons " they felt were part of their decision - making process, in ending this particular Life and expelling it .


In *protecting* said Organization, are you trying to Deny that, in fact, they do actively encourage, and try to sell our children, on the idea of them paying for an Abortion is " merely ridding yourselves of unwanted Fetal TISSUES " ?, or what ?

I don't know if you have fathered, personally, any children Don - but there are numerous parents Mega-concerned about the horrific amounts of down-right " deception ", besides only mis-information, being presented to our children that is saying " all you have to do is change the Words, and voila : you have New meaning.
In this case, " Murder, of most vulnerable innocent Life ", becomes merely a " quick easy Clinical-removal of unwanted inconvenience ". Murder is murder, no matter how you change the words.

And also, have you any idea how many numerous teenage girls plus women have gone, are going, and will continue to put themselves thru these kinds of experiences ... not even considering, let alone contemplating, the Future-consequences in the form of greater personal complications they are creating for themselves, from merely " making such a simple choice, today " ? -

How do you know what each Soul, and each un-conscious mind, may be creating in response ? and

more positively beneficial : how the girl/woman may want to re-live Life more *Unselfishly, Selfless and Loving * in the future ? :)


so, in closing for now, I would like for you to explain, please, if you meant this statement in any of the ways I just wrote about, or if differently - what/how *exactly* did you intend communicationg with the thought in your sentence, above ? Thank You.

(and also, if you feel that my post was so far wide of the context you Intend it stay, then please as well delete your post with your chosen Omissions in it, as now : how I intended it, has been changed as well, and as left Published by you therefore is (mis-representative = Am I correct in assuming you would not want to do that ? ...
and
also, What/However you decide to act, I would very respectfully ask that for any Future possible differences of opinion, would you please consider Notifying the person of your intention, 1st. and offering them the chance to Change their post to *suit you Better* ? - that way, they have some choice in the matter. Thank you, again :) )

Sincerely,


Annie

[Unregistered]

Hi Don

I was just thinking over your comments before about having met RAW and Dr Leary. I never asked you a fundamental question that has only just 'hit' me

Irrespective of Your profession as a hypnotherapist, do you believe that Imprints are changeable via hypnotherapeutic methods?

and

If you do, why do you suppose both Leary and Wilson seem to prefer or hold such faith in LSD and other forms of therapeutic endeavour. Did Dr Leary ever mention what he thought of Robert Dilts' work on Re-imprinting when you spoke


I would be most interested in your thoughts on this matter


Cheers


joe
I may not be in a position to reply until Monday as I am offline at home


Joe

[Don]

Hi Don,

re : " You said you are glad your daughter never had an unwanted pregnancy (at least not that you know). Respectfully, I'm not going to extend the ignorance."

Your remark (in parentheses) sounds suspiciously like coming from a typical Psycho-babbalist, idly hunting for more " clients ".



Annie, your direct quote is, in fact, a misquote. It makes me sound like I'm accusing you of ignorance and as anyone who reads the thread can see, that is NOT what I posted.

What I DID post was "But there are young people today who really think that oral sex is not sex, that you can't get pregnant from your first intercourse, or that you can't get an STD if you and your partner wash daily. The amount of misinformation out there is horrendous. Respectfully, I'm not going to extend the ignorance."

What I posted was the fact that today much of the information kids get in the street is inaccurate and ignorant. It had nothing to do with accusing you of giving out inaccurate or ignorant information. In the future, if you claim to be quoting someone and are leaving out part of the quote, please be so kind as to indicate the deletion with an elipsis (...) where the deletion takes place. Thank you.



You are correct in the part (prior to your parenthesis) that you read into my post, yesterday. And I hope that my post to Joe today helped you, catch a tiny glimpse, in understanding the *quality* of relationship my daughter and I enjoy.

<edited section>


I have deleted a large section of your post which is an attack on an organization. You are certainly free to have your opinions on that, but they are not part of this thread and should not have been included here.





Well, I agree with you, on : " But there are young people today who really think that oral sex is not sex, that you can't get pregnant from your first intercourse, or that you can't get an STD if you and your partner wash daily. The amount of misinformation out there is horrendous. "

<edited section>

The we agree with each other on this. However, again, you went on to bring up an issue which was not part of this thread and again attack an organization, and those coments have been removed. I would respectfully suggest you consider posting them elsewhere.



When married, I conceived her at 33, I had only had sex once previously : that being a " rape " at 25 which fortunately did not result in my becoming pregnant; however, I would have raised such a child *blessing her/him with my passionate love SAME as I did my daughter*.

<edited section>

Annie

Thank you for giving us this information as it gives us some insight into your comments and ideas. Few people are willing to be so open. The section deleted, again, had nothing to do with this thread. In fact, it was comments from someone else.

[Don]

Unfortunately, strychnine in LSD is not a myth. The strychnine changes the body's chemistry (i.e., it weakens it) so that, supposedly, a smaller dose of the LSD has a greater effect. However, strychnine is a deadly poison and either too much or extended periods of small amounts can have deleterious effects on both the body, including the brain.

[Don]

Hi Don

Irrespective of Your profession as a hypnotherapist, do you believe that Imprints are changeable via hypnotherapeutic methods?

and

If you do, why do you suppose both Leary and Wilson seem to prefer or hold such faith in LSD and other forms of therapeutic endeavour. Did Dr Leary ever mention what he thought of Robert Dilts' work on Re-imprinting when you spoke

Joe

1) Yes, I do think imprints are changeable via hypnotherapy.
2) My guess as to why Leary and Wilson prefer LSD is because that is their paradigm.
3) I never talked to Dr. Leary re: Dilts.

[Jim'll Fix It]

with regards to Joe trying LSD to achieve deep psychological changes, LSD is a hugely powerful drug and as Don says be very careful with the dosages,
I in my youth have taken LSD many times, quite an experience(both positve and negative)
The thing with LSD is that 'things' can be magnified massivley, and any thoughts of paranoia or similar can very fast get out of control ,
like a snowball effect, make sure you have no quibbles or qualms and are COMPLETELY comfortable with the people your with.
LSD can totally warp the mind(almost child like understanding of the world) and to try and do something productive-well best of luck, concentration lasts about 3minutes before you notice how your friend's moustache looks very gay before it melts off his face,
i guess it depends on the doseages you take and most importantly the envoirnment your in. But basically preparation is paramount , if you start feeling negative and the mind starts to crash , change scenery.
*To do a Robert Anton Wilson*, The guy from the tv, i'd be interested to read about what he did,..if you could direct me to any info source , would be cool.
And btw Drugs are bad , dont do them,..but if you do , understand fully what you are getting yourself into...with regards...

[Grey Lensman]

Additionally, there is a interesting article on Robert Dilts' site:

http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/article4.htm

From which I quote:

Leary became interested in NLP and hypnosis as other methods to change imprints that avoided the uncertainties and ecological problems of LSD.

Ever get the feeling you're going around in circles?;)

[Robert H]

with regard to experiencing the effects of LSD, the NLP technique "Drug of choice" is an excellent alternative to actually inducing dangerous chemicals into ones body.

If you have never taken LSD you can simply elicit the very specific sequence of kinesthetic sensations that goes along with it from someone who has taken LSD, then put yourself into a medium trance and induce the same specific sequence of feelings in yourself. Since LSD is a rather long trip there are several stages of that each have kinesthetic loops of a few key feeling sensations. You can go right to the stage you want, and come out of it anytime you want. Both of which are drawbacks to actually using chemicals.

You can then have a designer LSD trip via hypnosis / NLP.

At this point you can then start playing around with making various changes such as intensity, speed of the sequence, and visual / auditory submodalities.

Another safe way to experience LSD is to take second position, and exactly mirror the physiology of someone who is either fully associating into a past trip or having a present time one.

These are both safe ways to proceed in being able to experience the highly highly touted LSD experience without the dangers and risks that go with the actual substance. It's also a good idea to have a guardian angel so that you can safely abandon yourself to the experience.

For more information on the "Drug of Choice" pattern see the book "change your mind and keep the change" by andreas and andreas, also Insiders guide to submodalities by macdonald and bandler.

In my experience There is a certain visual - kinesthetic synesthisia that is induced by LSD which is responsible for the hype. Essentially it chemically and somewhat randomly dissambles with your reality strategy. This is why it is often valued by those pursuing magick. It makes ones perception of reality seem sort of fluid. Again, I want to emphasize that there is no need to take the actual drug to experience the same effect.

Another advantage of NLP is the ability to play with your reality strategy with precision. This is best done using a combination of NLP and hypnosis. With these tools it is possible to engineer trips.

This is advanced stuff. Only even go go down this road if you really have your s**t together. clean up all your negative emotions, self limiting beliefs and incongruencies, and get in a good couple hundred hours + of both self hypnosis and meditation - to the point where you can be a witness to your own mind without freaking out.

Given that the actual chemical is NOT used - and that the above suggested prerequisites are met - hypnotic/neurolinguistically generated LSD opens new possibilities regarding ways of perceiving reality.

- Robert

[Pdrive]

Kind off topic, but is Annie still posting here? - I have never see her post other than is this thread.

[skip]

Pdrive,

Annie is banned from posting.