NLP and Trance

[TheApprentice]

I've been reading on NLP/Hypnosis for some time now and i'm confused with the term "Trance"...

- Are you more suggestible in a trance ?

- Why doesn't NLP use Trance in the same way hypnosis does?


I would really appreciate some feedback.

[skip]

Dear Apprentice,

"I've been reading on NLP/Hypnosis for some time now and i'm confused with the term "Trance"...

- Are you more suggestible in a trance ?"

It is difficult to define trance, suffice to say that we are in trance all the time. And as we go from one type of trance, to another, we seem to be more or less suggestable. But even in our least suggestable states (trances) we are highly suggestable to someone skilled. I might be so bold as to say that we are equally as suggestable in any trance state, as we are in another, and that it is the skill of the person doing the suggesting, that determines the "depth" of trance needed, to accomplish the work.

There may be some people who disagree with that tho.


"- Why doesn't NLP use Trance in the same way hypnosis does?"

NLP does use trance in exactly the same way hypnosis does. NLP just does not necessitate a 'formal' trance induction, to accomplish "deep trance" phenomena nor does it BELIEVE as hypnotists do, that a specific level of trance Somnambulism or "deeper" is necessary to be effective. The effectiveness of NLP in skilled hands, is proven, and so is the effectiveness of Hypnosis in skilled hands, even if the beliefs about what is necessary to work, differ.

I hope that was of some benifit.

[Annie]

Hi Apprentice,

You commented : " i'm confused with the term "Trance "...

We, each of us humans, are in trance of one kind or another every moment of our life.
~

You asked : " - Are you more suggestible in a trance ? "

dependant on some variables including a Helper's skill, like for instance :
a person in a Coma-trance, you would help them iin a different way than
a person in a Esdaile-trance, or
a person in one kind of Alzheimer-trance, or
a person in another Somnambulistic-trance, or
a person in another Waking-trance, etc.
~

You asked : " - Why doesn't NLP use Trance in the same way hypnosis does? "

NLP defines " hypnosis " differently, And it uses it for different purposes.

All over the Internet, you will find applications for NLP-trances, of varying kinds.

You will find less on applications for Hypnosis-trances ... simply because people choose not to believe such are possible; even as they are. It's just a matter of *changes* in Belief :)

You will read here often, about " skilled hands " ; refering to " the skill of the Practitioner " yet -

I would propose to you that any Positive, Benevolent, Encouraging person can learn how to help guide the * Self-healing, and Generational, goals * of other people.

What are you *allow*ing yourself to believe, of a Self-healing ? as well as Generative ? nature .

Are you interested in learning more ?


Annie

[Merlin]

Consciousness is an outwardly focussed attention on something. Any thoughts which are not outwardly focussed are called 'trance'. Trance then, covers a wide territory.

Any time you are not paying attention, you are susseptable to suggestions. Salesman use this all the time, so do magicians.
Since any trance allows you to be suggestable, it is often used.

Hypnosis is a particular trance in which you are even more suggestable than an average trance.
A few hypnotists understand the level of trance known as somnambulism. In somnambulism you are about 100 times more suggestable than when you are just hypnotized.

Most NLP trainings do not cover hypnosis extensively, so NLP practitioners often do not know hypnosis.

[j0hnny#]

In Trance-formations (a book on Trance / hypnosis in NLP by Bandler and Grinder - seems to be a fusion of Milton Ericson's hypnosis techiniques and NLP) John Grinder provides a definition of Trance as any inwardly directed state that detaches a person from their current physical spatial and temporal awareness. So you could be caught up in a daydream about what you did last night at your friends house... you would be in a trance state - with your attention absorbed internally and detached from your location in the moment your physical constitution resides in....

Seems (from what I've read so far - only on chapter 2) that a hypnotherapist might seek to reach deeper levels of trance by leading your attention inward to different space/time location. The challenge for the therapist is to set up the conditions that would allow the client to go deeper into his inner experience. The depth of the Trance (as far as Grinder is concerned) can be improved and sustained through the use of certain NLP techniques. E.g. establishing rapport and credibility by focusing on what is induibitable to the client (factors that s/he will necessarily experience externally - e.g. the warmth of her body against the chair she is sitting on) and using these as a transition to suggesting internal states - such as relaxation... So therapist says '...as you are sitting there you can become aware of the warmth of the chair against your thighs and you might even notice a general feeling of well being is generating within you.. and as you listen to the sound of my voice.. you might find that you are feeling more relaxed and open... and you can lightly go into a trance or go deeply into a trance (emmbedded commands -example owed to Skip (elsewhere in this forum)'.

So NLP techniques can be employed to aid the hypnotic induction (establishing rapport and credibility and emmbedded commands - for example - also I imagine you could use other techniques such as brightening and dimming to further allow the client to go into certain states, though sensitivity to outward signals from the clients response is important in sustaining the credibility of the suggestions used and hence the depth of the trance state maintained. so, e.g., one example in the book is where a client is imagining a situation where she is underwater.... she becomes less deeply entranced when the hypnotiser suggests that she hears the splash of water passing her ears.. you just don't hear splashes of water when you are underwater ... so credibility is lost to some extent....

Finding out what inner senarios would be conducive to the client can be found out in advance by simply asking what a person likes about where she lives... if she particularly like the beach outside her house (e.g.) then that might be a good location for the inner scence you might want to paint... Also paying attention to her answer may give a good indication as to her dominant submodality (audio, visual, kinesthetic). Grinder also recommends you begin with the dominant submodality and lead the client into one not so prominent submodality - that would be enough to get her into a decent trance....

NLP techniques can help hypnotherapists induce their trances with powerful effect.... seemed from what I read though that a good description of trance for a human being (or useful one at least) is when a persons awareness is in a place and time other than their physical place and time... Under this description perhaps there is only degrees of formality and informatlity and direct and indirect methods between what an NLP'er might do and what a hypnotherapist might do.... though it is suggested (in the book I have been referring to) that the techniques of going inward are employed in both (NLP and Hypno), and that NLP principles can certianly help induce trance effectively and powerfully for both groups of individuals..

I'm not entirely clear about what somnabulisitc trance is - what would it be like to be in a state like this? I know that NLP can help with sorting out personal problems by a method of reinterpreting - repicturing (for example) - problematic areas (giving them a different submodality - pushing bothersome internal pictures/ movies into the distance - turning down the brightness, etc. - though everyone is different so need to pay attention to what works for any individual). If a person is in a relaxed hypnotic state then s/he will likely be able to focus and imagine appropriate senarios / auditions / feelings - submodalities - much more easily.

If going inward in this manner is what a trance is, then maybe NLP and hypnosis trances are not so different... if they both rely on focusing an individuals attention out of their current space / time location - inwardly directed, and to effect change, then this definition serves both hypnosis and NLP equally well - what may be different is the methods employed once this displacement of attention inwards (for want of better words, perhaps) is established. Once again, however, I'm not so sure about how this somnabulistic trance is to be understood.... what is it like for the participant? I once spent some time helping a hypnosis student with her final year before obtaining her qualification... some of her suggestions at times helped me go into some very colourful senarios inward.... and may even have helped with some problem areas in my life... who knows.... it was always very nice relaxed afternoons I spent there anyway.... the methodology once in the relaxed state varied (as she experimented with different techniques) ... and sometimes involved imagining situations where I would like to improve things in a positive way (senarios were created by means of explicit suggestion - of how it was and how I would like it to be and the confirmation of this new approach and how the next time I found myself in that situation I would approach it this way - kind of like suggesting positive reactions to situations...). NLP seems to be more about having power at your fingertips to 'reframe' (is this the correct word?) life areas... by going inward and modifying the way you encode your experiences.... or at least this is one way it can be effective...

So if the criterion for trance is going inward out with attention away from current physical space/time location then perhaps trance for NLP and for hypnosis is not so different.... However may depend on what somnabulistic trance is... so...

[Merlin]

>Seems (from what I've read so far - only on chapter 2) that a hypnotherapist might seek to reach deeper levels of trance by leading your attention inward to different space/time location.

That is one method. But it is slow and awkward.

> So NLP techniques can be employed to aid the hypnotic induction

Yes, but the methods are slow, awkward and you never know where in the trance the subject is.

>- that would be enough to get her into a decent trance....

I wouldn't think so.

>NLP techniques can help hypnotherapists induce their trances with powerful effect....

<yawn>

>seemed from what I read though that a good description of trance for a human being (or useful one at least) is when a persons awareness is in a place and time other than their physical place and time...

Try having an appendix removed with only this trance for anesthesia.

> Under this description perhaps there is only degrees of formality and informatlity and direct and indirect methods between what an NLP'er might do and what a hypnotherapist might do....

As NLP goes.


>I'm not entirely clear about what somnabulisitc trance is

Somnambulism is simply that quality of trance which allows suggestions such as total anesthesia to be accepted.

> - what would it be like to be in a state like this?

Comfortable ;-)

>I know that NLP can help with sorting out personal problems by a method of reinterpreting - repicturing (for example) - problematic areas (giving them a different submodality - pushing bothersome internal pictures/ movies into the distance - turning down the brightness, etc. - though everyone is different so need to pay attention to what works for any individual). If a person is in a relaxed hypnotic state then s/he will likely be able to focus and imagine appropriate senarios / auditions / feelings - submodalities - much more easily.

Yes, but try getting a burn victim *relaxed* enough to apply this technique.

>If going inward in this manner is what a trance is, then maybe NLP and hypnosis trances are not so different...

Then again maybe there is a small difference.


>if they both rely on focusing an individuals attention out of their current space / time location - inwardly directed, and to effect change, then this definition serves both hypnosis and NLP equally well - what may be different is the methods employed once this displacement of attention inwards (for want of better words, perhaps) is established.

Then again, maybe not.

>Once again, however, I'm not so sure about how this somnabulistic trance is to be understood....

Responsiveness to suggestion.

> what is it like for the participant?

They are more successful.

>I once spent some time helping a hypnosis student with her final year before obtaining her qualification... some of her suggestions at times helped me go into some very colourful senarios inward.... and may even have helped with some problem areas in my life... who knows.... it was always very nice relaxed afternoons I spent there anyway....

Relaxation and hypnosis are not necessarily synonymous.

>the methodology once in the relaxed state varied (as she experimented with different techniques) ... and sometimes involved imagining situations where I would like to improve things in a positive way (senarios were created by means of explicit suggestion - of how it was and how I would like it to be and the confirmation of this new approach and how the next time I found myself in that situation I would approach it this way - kind of like suggesting positive reactions to situations...). NLP seems to be more about having power at your fingertips to 'reframe' (is this the correct word?)

yes, the word is correct.

>life areas... by going inward and modifying the way you encode your experiences.... or at least this is one way it can be effective...

So if the criterion for trance is going inward out with attention away from current physical space/time location then perhaps trance for NLP and for hypnosis is not so different....

I would submit there is a slight difference :)

>However may depend on what somnabulistic trance is...
Or what 'hypnosis' is :)


You are learning and understanding the book well.
I'm just suggesting there is something beyond what the book offers.

[Annie]

Hi JOhnny#,

I can explain a few of the unmistakable differences between the " average, non-directed, non-specific trances " and * Hypnosis * to you easily, and quickly :

You said: In Trance-formations (a book on Trance / hypnosis in NLP by Bandler and Grinder - seems to be a fusion of Milton Ericson's hypnosis techiniques and NLP) John Grinder provides a definition of Trance as any inwardly directed state that detaches a person from their current physical spatial and temporal awareness.

Ok; so - you have just provided the Ericksonean/NLP-definition of " trance " , namely : " any inwardly directed state that detaches a person from their current physical spatial and temporal awareness. "

But notice, as Merlin just said : " Hypnosis is a *particular* trance in which you are *even more suggestable* than an " average " trance.
A few hypnotists understand the level of trance known as somnambulism. In somnambulism you are about 100 times more suggestable "

In the " average " trances created by Ericksonean technique and NLP, they by design, but " SPAR " with the critical faculties of the conscious mind.


As us so trained hypnotists know, * Hypnosis * is : the BY-PASS of the critical faculties of the conscious mind, and the establishment of acceptable selective thinking ".

That's the 1st. major difference, of how us hypnotists have been able to, for years, help other people win their goals, of * Self-healing * wonders.
~


You asked : I'm not entirely clear about what somnabulisitc trance is - what would it be like to be in a state like this?

Well now, do you recall, as a small child getting an "owie" of some sort, only to have your mommy &/or daddy " kiss it all better " ? : sure worked Well then, didn't it ? : Yup, you were in * Hypnosis *, alright !

And in * somnambulism *, like Merlin also just indicated citing " anesthesia for an Appy-procedure, or Burn-victims" - you would be amazed what else you can accomplish there :)


Annie

[Annie]

Hi Apprentice,

You asked : - Why doesn't NLP use Trance in the same way hypnosis does?

as Merlin (oh btw, whenever I look at her ' Scarry red ' eyes, I just imagine them being ' Rainbow-swirled ', instead - lol; interesting, the wonderful power :) of our minds, eh ? ) Anyway, as Merlin said :

1. " Consciousness = an outwardly focused attention on something."

In another post, I described this consciousness as our Costume.
next,
2. " Trance = any Thoughts not outwardly focused. Trance then, covers a wide territory."

In that same post I'm referring to, I called these Trance-states, our Underwear; (actually it's all the various NLP-layers of clothes, or means/ways including the THINK-ing of Will-power, Positive affirmations, etc. BETWEEN our Consciousness and our Self lying hidden/protected underneath); and closer to our Real/Soul-self intermingled with that.
next,
3. Hypnosis = the Bypassing of the ' critical faculty ' of the conscious mind, and the establishment of acceptable selected thinking.


so both Apprentice and JOhnny#,

Now that you are aware of the formal definition of ( Hypnosis : remember it as the Bypassing of the ' critical faculty ' of the conscious mind, and the establishment of acceptable selected thinking ), you might ask : " the Critical Faculty " well, what is that ? " simply this : it is another (more interior) Filter, used by each phenomenally wonderful mind, a filter with a very *specific* job.

Now, you might ask : " Well, what is *this filter's Job* ? "
ah, friends : you're well on your way to gaining new, and truely Marvelous learnings ! :)


Annie

[j0hnny#]

Thanks Merlin and Annie the replies are both very helpful... (sincerely) it is very agreeable to come to one of these boards and get information from people who know what they are talking about... Annie's criterion for hypnosis I find particularly helpful.

Got me thinking, recently I was listening (with headphones on) to an audio file by Paul Scheele (several in fact - though one in particular about youthfulness). His tapes are billed as paraliminal and hypnosis experience (or something like that - paraliminal and hypnosis being the important point here). Anyway, his technique involves simulataneously delivering dialogue to the left and right ears of different content - one more metaphorical (to the left ear) and one more instructive (to the right ear)- (or at, least, if I remember rightly re: left/right thing). This particular tape was seriously good (imo) to the extent that after a certain stage in the dialogue my brain just switched off (felt it shutting down) like an overload (felt as though there were a hundred different voices talking to me at once - something that never happened whilst listening to other of his tapes) - next thing I knew I woke up lying on my coach with little idea what had happened or how long I had been lying there (that shut down was nice though - like complete submission - though beyond that moment I have no memory).

Was wondering if this might have been then, as Annie described, a bypass of the critical faculties? Was this somnabulism? or did I just fall asleep?

[Merlin]

Hi J0hnny#,

Paul Scheele uses light hypnosis in most of his products. But he most often calls it something other than hypnosis (i assume so that he can sell product to those who think hypnosis is evil).
Even so, some people will go deeper into hypnotic trance regardless of the methods used.
Were you somnambulistic? Asleep? There is really no way we can tell. There are tests for somnambulism, but we were not there to test you. Beyond that we could only guess. Amnesia of the hypnosis is not a rest for somnambulism.

Your critical factulty was likely bypassed. But again, we were not there and can only guess.