Re-incarnation? [Archive] - HypnosisForum.com and AmPac.edu Community Forums

norbert

05-31-2004, 02:25 AM

People develop their beliefs by themselves. What i refer as a fact is a belief. A belief is something a person is absolutly certain about. Though there are no objective facts a human being can ever get from the real world, as all our senses and ways we represent outside events are subjective. Ergo, the highest state any human being ever can have is a subjective representation about something that the person holds to be absolutly true. This is a fact or belielf.

He or she in my, ill phrased sentence, is the person that has built that belief. So if you belief in re-incarnation, you made it a certainty for you. And that is all right. Yet we do not know anything about reality as it is so it is an interpretation you as a person developed based on experiences. If it works for you, helps you to have a wonderful and joyful, grateful and pelasurable life without harming others (:D very important to mention but self evident) beliefing in re-incarnation is a good thing. If it makes you feel bad and destructive and.... it is kinda limiting.

And btw i am sure that on my tombstone will be written "To be continued"

;)

Hope that answers it a bit

Annie

06-01-2004, 01:29 AM

Norbert commented : "... if you belief in re-incarnation ... "

I do not.

I believe God organized :
*energy* into what many call an individual's
*soul*. Eventually choosing experiencing mortality, souls further became empowered/endowed with a
*mind*, vastly subconscious, learning at lightening-speed of only 9-months (give or
...........take some time) to structurally-develop & make functionally-independent, a
*body* : choosing being 'together balanced benevolently happy, in unison with others' ' feels like
*Heaven* :)

Annie

06-01-2004, 01:37 AM

(a single-word typo-correction : instead of "unison", I had intended "synergy"; like this) :

*body* : choosing being 'together balanced benevolently happy, in synergy with others' ' feels like
*Heaven* :)

Don

06-01-2004, 09:48 AM

Do you believe in Re-incarnation and if so, what makes you sure that it is a fact?

Joe

That depends upon what you mean about reincarnation being a "fact." It is a fact that when I regress people they remember past lives. So yes, reincarnation is a fact.

It is a fact that when people understand events from those past lives it can change their current lives.

If you are asking if such past lives were objective realities in the linear time-space continuum we call "reality," then I don't know. Frankly, I don't even care. For me, helping people is what is important, not whether they were walking around 1,000 years ago.

Annie

06-01-2004, 07:47 PM

Basically I agree with how Don said it, re ' starting by respecting *another person's beliefs/mapped perspective* in order to help them' ...

However, did Joe ask for our own beliefs re "re-incarnation" ? Joe can answer that question best :)

TaffyE

06-01-2004, 08:45 PM

...

However, did Joe ask for our own beliefs re "re-incarnation" ?
He did actually - 2nd paragraph

Simple Guy

06-01-2004, 08:46 PM

Joe, I don't believe that reincarnation necessarily takes place.

Annie

06-01-2004, 10:50 PM

Taffy : "He did actually - 2nd paragraph." (speaking of Joe asking us for our own Beliefs/opinion, re " re-incarnation ").

Thank you, Taffy, for assuring me that I had read that right :)

skip

06-02-2004, 07:21 AM

Joe,

In what way does it matter to you?

The reason i ask is, it seems to me that we are here to learn and progress (as that makes sense to us) in so far as we can, whether or not reincarnation is real.

In that light how would "knowing" change your purpose?

skip

Unregistered

06-03-2004, 02:27 PM

Everyone is right if what you mean by belief is incontrovertable proof of some sort to bolster such belief. Well, nothing is incontrovertable in my opinion, so I pass. I believe I have just been the subject of a miracle, but I have no interest in proving it. Why should I care if anyone or no-one believes as I do? It is all subjective.......Terry

Unregistered

06-03-2004, 06:45 PM

I strongly believe in reincarnation. Of course, I also believe in NDE[near death experience], angels, ghosts, and all miricales in general. I was watching this show on UPN, called Unexplained Mysteries. It was about NDE, but there was a man who was hypnotised and remembered a past life. Apparently he had been a Jewish man, killed in WWII. He remembered entering heaven, and the first thing out of his mouth upon remembering his death was, "I'm not hungry anymore." Also, he is christian in this life, and they believe that the light in heaven is white or yellow, but he said he saw a blue light, which is what the Jewish expect to see. Unexplained Mysteries is on UPN, Sunday, noon eastern US time, and explores a wide range of topics.

Terry

06-07-2004, 10:45 AM

Since all we are being asked is our beliefs, and not proof of same (G) I have a good question.....Why on earth would anyone want to believe they were coming back again to make up for the mistakes they made last time?????? Only reason I can see, is that they are not satisfied with the results they have achieved in the present, and want a second chance.....Personally, I am excited at the idea of living on without a body that can age and become uncomfortable, and have only that wonderful mind I have now, but able to explore so many more areas of knowledge, and bask in only the positives....Notice, I made no mention of God, since that is a personal thing, and not nescessarily shared by those who read this. I believe what I have said should be acceptable to non Christians as well as Christians of various stipes....Terry

Tal Lamink

07-08-2004, 02:22 AM

The above two are inter-connected. Karma is simply action and reaction. Thus, everything you do creates and cause an effect in return.

Therefore, if you do good you beget good.

Reincarnation is to give us a chance to cleanse ourselves for our wrong past deeds and also to give us a chance to reap the seeds of our good deeds from our pasts.

Why are we begetting so much good is because of our past good deeds. So is the reverse. Thus, our current state of being is the results of our pasts doings.

However, one can only remember our pasts if we are into an altered state of consciousness, which is the sub-conscious.

Sub-consciousness can be attained during sleep or meditation. At this altered state, our mind can be able to recall our pasts, be it current or pasts. Ever thought of this method of recalling our pasts?

Hypnotist uses the technique of regression to revert to a person's pasts. Our conscious mind only think of the present and we get too pre-occupied by the present conscious scenario, thus, we do not get to alter our conscious mind to sub-conscious level to know our pasts so easily.

There are also psychics who could read our past lives. They read our pasts to know more about our present. These psychics are born with such uncanny intuition capabilities. Perhaps, it is one in a million or maybe more, who are born psychics. Of course, if we undergo proper training and guidance, our minds can be trained to be psychics to a certain extent.

Unregistered

07-16-2004, 12:40 PM

Hi

And then an asteroid hits the earth and everyone dies, were will you Re-incarnate.
If a person is really sick they don't even think or care about things that are supposed to be important to them, like money, love, sex, they just want to feel better.
You are your body, if your body dies, you die for ever.
If your body feels good then you feel good.
The brain is part of the body and sometimes your worst enemy.
Live for the moment, it could be gone tomorrow.

Tal Lamink

07-19-2004, 01:54 AM

Yes, Hi.

What you said is something like if "Atlantis sank, what happened?"

I met someone who is a hypnotist. She is now married to a hypnotist/master crystal therapist. She said she met her current husband in Atlantis.

So, reincarnation tells the truth of our past lives under the regression technique.

If you are sick, then you got to treat yourself. See a doctor, simple as that.

When you got better and recovered, look back at what happened. Maybe, it was a faulty nut in the past that cause you to be sick. Karma is as simple as that. That faulty nut caused your present sufferings.

Reincarnation is based on the law of mother nature which is supreme. One cannot go against law of nature for going against nature will result in some kind of divine retribution.

So, be as pure as nature and you will be able to understand the thousands and one billion things nature can afford you to know through the universal mind which we all have. If we are pure like nature, we shall be able to receive what nature can offer.

Unregistered

07-26-2004, 02:11 PM

Ye and like someone said when something hits the earth and nature isn't there anymore, what then? Just remember WE are nothing, go out tonight and look at the stars and then YOU diside for yourself, what you are in this great world.

Unregistered

07-26-2004, 02:33 PM

When they look back at us and they write down their history
What will they say about our generation?
We're the ones who knew everything still we did nothing
Harvested everything, planted nothing

Well we live pretty well in the wake of the goldrush
Floating in comfort on waves of our apathy
Quietly knowing away at Her body
Unte we motgage the future, bury our children

Storehouses full with the fruits we've been given
We send off the scragends to succle the starving
But still we can't feed this strang hunger inside
Greedy, restless and unsatisfied

I was never much one for the great "big bang" theory
Going out in a blaze of suicidal glory
Not foolish and brave, these leaders of ours
Just stupid and petty, unworthy of power...

Just a little leak here and a small error there
Another square mile poisoned forever
A series of sad and pathetic little fizzles
And out go the lights, never to return

The affair it is over, the passion is dead
She stares at us now with the ice in Her eyes
But we turn away from these bitter reproaches
And take up distractions to forget what we're doing

Well I stand on these hills and I watch Her at night
A thousand square miles, a million orange lights
Wounded and scared, She lies silent in pain
Raped and betrayed in the cold acid rain
And I wish and I wish
We could start over again
Yes I wish and I wish
We could win back Her love once again

Sullivan - New Model Army
Makes you think.

Tal Laminck

07-27-2004, 04:19 AM

What do you want to achieve in life?

Lief is like if you wish to be a successful professor in engineering, and in your mind you think about asteroids hitting earth, atomic bomb going give you that 'big bang', what is life? What are you going to do?

My god, I really got to think like that each time before I proceed to take on an adventurous ambitious career journey?

God has things set for us, at least those serious eventful ones. This is all set up due to our past karma. We cannot change them. If it is FATE, it is FATE. If it is DESTINY, perhaps you could mitigate and change it a little. Even that requires some sacrifices to gain that positive change.

Will earth suffer that 'big bang'? God has it already set whether there will be a 'big bang' or not.

In this solar system, there are so many stars and planets revolving round the Sun. All these are set by God. So, should I be so bothered about the 'big bang' ..... is it to come and confirm coming soon? God has done his part. God knows.

I trust God. I am not going to wake up each morning and start wondering if the world will end with a asteroid crash. I believe God. God has things planned for me.

Let's all look at the positive part of life.

Have a nice day and be cheerful. Good luck.

j0hnny#

07-27-2004, 06:49 AM

It seems to me impossible to determine whether re-incarnation is something that happens or not.... if it does then it seems reasonable to say I can't remember it... and past-life regression seems a dubious business (to me) - presupposes from the outset you had one.... assumes what is to be proved in its proving...

IF you had a past life or will have a future one (beyond) what others will see (at least) as your death, then what would be so important about it? What is important, seems to me to be dependent on where you are, and this places you directly where and when you are at any lucid moment...

Whatever you think of the last answer from Tal there is an inevitability and anxiety about being human and what appears in your head will not always come forth in your existence.. ..

I think mankind lives somewhere between pursuing and being pursued (though the latter may encompass all) to fall into trust is an incredible thing - particularly if surrender is complete - when you lose your will you gain freedom completely - though this may be an impossible task to sustain, the glimpse can liberate enough to not ever be bothered by the condition you are in as a human being.... However far life drifts from your control, when the being of what comes forth is surrendered to, there will be no object of your dissatisfaction....

``
/.\

Tal Laminck

08-05-2004, 11:56 PM

There is no anxiety about being human. You create your anxiety, JOHNNY. Anxiety is created by your misdeeds, wrong deed, bad deeds, thereby resulting in bad KARMA.

You are pursued, JOHNNY, because of your bad past deed(s). Bad KARMA follows you whereever you go, you reborn, you live, you hear, you talk, you write, and so on...everywhere.

So whatever it is, do good then as GOOD begets GOOD according to the LAW OF KARMA. You do GOOD you never fear because you shall be reciprocated with GOOD. That is, you shall then be "pursued" by GOOD.

Whatever given to you, FATED or DESTINED now, live with it and take it easy and above all, LIVE LIFE TO THE FULLEST.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

j0hnny#

08-11-2004, 05:27 AM

what is it all for! ... is there no anxiety in that? - if you can answer 'no' to this second quesiton remember a time before you could answer the first.. this is the human condition... existence is a primary concern for us... security is born in the forms (ways) of life we fall into.... in pursuit of one (Q1) we fall into the other... the anxiety of which you speak is indeed a product of my (in one sense) actions... deeds, I accept that.. Now I am interested in how you understand good and bad deeds... and what is the motivation you have for it?

Whatever given to you, FATED or DESTINED now, live with it and take it easy

nice :)

Tal Laminck

08-25-2004, 01:32 AM

Hi Johnny, I read that the technique REGRESSION can be used to CHECK your PAST LIVES.

I also read that a HYPNOTIST is able to REGRESS his patient to a stage whereby his PATIENT would behave as A SMALL CHILD. I have also read of stories that regression beyond the childhood days cause the patient to TALK DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, ie a language not conversed by the patient in this current life. I also heard of a story told that a hypnotist SOLVED his patient's current life PROBLEM having DETECTED the cause back to his patient's PAST LIFE - this patient recovered after that.

We have heard of reincarnations stories from people. Some are able to RECALL vividly the PLACES they had NEVER BEEN on earth. They are able to recall what they know existed in a familiar location in this life but NOT KNOWING why and how they KNEW it.

Have you heard of the boy Lhama? He was reincarnated in France and Lhamas seek him out after a high ranking venerable monk departed. They found him in France , reincarnated to a French family.

Have you ever experienced a DREAM, walking down MEMORY lane? ..... in a PATH you are so sure you have not walk before in this rebirth? You knew those PLACES, you knew the PEOPLE in your dreams, you KNOW how to go to the places in your dreams, you know where to turn and you know this road LEADS to where and what places. How could this have HAPPENED?

I am sure if you wish to SEEK OUT more on the topic of reincarnation, then mix around with PEOPLE who BELIEVE in reincarnation, who have experienced reincarnation, who can recall their past lives, who are able to tell you things which they have never learn in this lifetime, etc etc etc.

To summarise, knowing REINCARNATION exist is one IMPORTANT thing, that it exist with the PURPOSE of reminding us of our ACTIONS and reactions is also very important, thereby, reminding us that WE should all the time DO GOOD all the time to beget good.

Do good begets good is a CLEANSING process for OURSELVES, us SOULS, our SPIRITS.

This will LEAD us to NIRVANA and ENLIGHTENMENT.

j0hnny#

08-26-2004, 08:10 AM

Tal Laminck

08-27-2004, 02:55 AM

Not offending anyone and with due respect, I believe I had enough said already and clearly too though the topic of reincarnation is such a wide and controversial issue regarded nowadays.

I reckoned it is hard to change another's sub-conscious if he is unwilling to accept or listen. Unless one start to pick up a thing or two by reading up reincarnation and do some soul search, perhaps this is what is needed to get one convinced.

As an example, would you not tell another that you could "move mountains with your bare hands" even if you could especially so if no one would believe you so.

Maybe that is why we don't know who among us is more spiritually enlightened or knowledgeable sometimes. The enlightened one or knowledgeable would prefer to keep mum over matters as we are all born with our senses to ride pathways towards enlightenment.

Let's continue our pathway toward purity in this life for a better tomorrow, a happier person and live well with joy and happiness.

Peace to you all and GOD bless you all.

OM MANI PADME HOME.

Neurotic1

01-06-2005, 12:59 PM

And btw i am sure that on my tombstone will be written "To be continued"
Lol Norbert. On mine, I think I'll have 'discontinued, awaiting new model'.:)

Merlin

01-06-2005, 09:14 PM

>And btw i am sure that on my tombstone will be written "To be continued"...

Neurotic1:
>On mine, I think I'll have 'discontinued, awaiting new model'.

Merlin:
Mine will likely say:
Event cancelled for lack of interest.

frog

01-07-2005, 06:19 AM

merlin i thought yours would say 'Behind you!'

rodimus

01-27-2005, 03:10 AM

My belief:

I believe in reincarnation. We are all spiritual beings (energy and consciousness) choosing to experience life on earth as human. God is perfection, the perfect life and principle, the perfect Spirit which we call God is everywhere and it is in us. And that spirit thru us, is self-aware, self-conscious, that the absolute needs a relative-ness to compare and to discover itself( to find itself/our true self).

Have you ever wondered how life is so much like a learning school? You go through the same situations again and again until you have learned something of it. Yet when you have learned about your true self and find that perfection within, you have found the perfection refered to as the 'son of god' (not limiting this label to Jesus here). The son of God, the Christ Principle, also called The Buddha (the awakened/enlightened), The Krishna(hindu), The Atman (Hindu) all refer to that perfection or enlightened state, where God and the indivudual are one. These people are spirits on the last reincarnation on earth. They have more light and wisdom than the rest, being closer to the truth after many lives of unveiling the illusions. The lessons? Love, Wisdom, Power, Spirit, Joy, Beauty, Light, Perfection as the great Thomas Troward describes it.

There are many written cases in such books like "Reincarnation" (i forgot who the author is, read it years ago), that refers to cases after cases of people, expecially children below the age of 5-6, talk about previous identities and lifetimes. In one case a talented child of about 10 was able to draw and paint with special hand techniques only known to masters of art, pointed the teacher.

There are many things to learn in this life school called Earth. All of them are lessons of self-discovery. Some have come to fulfil certain desires (desire to create), some have come to resolve certain 'unresolved issues' (unable to let go) etc. Why does certain religions call humans as 'sinners'. 'Sin' does not mean evil, for the real definition in olden times is "Missing the mark", like an archer missing his target. Meaning, not knowing Truth(Real Source or real nature) about one's true self.

Perhaps a brief way of summarising it,- we are all sons of God, yet we have come forth to rediscover our true Self our true Nature. It is said in an ancient text "To the bastard, the secrets of heaven is not revealed", meaning one who does not know his true nature of God, Love, Light, Forgiveness, Joy, etc.
My favourite book to date remain Robert Monroe's Far Journey (available in Amazon). In the 1950s, he suddenly found that he(his consciosness, awareness, or spirit) would come out of his body. He did not control it. And being a Catholic, it scared him for its the "devil's work", his church people told him. Psychologists told him he was perhaps too stressed or hallucinating or having some mental problem.

Over the period of about 30 years he explored to other realms. He meets a guide in this astral plane, who is filled with Light, and who knows everything about him, his past, even his thoughts. Many people with Near Death Experience call this LIght Being theor God, or Jesus, or Allah, etc. But Monroe just related to this being as his friend. This friend brought him to many experiences (mostly from his childhood, and others from his other lives), where Monroe had to re-experience them in the astral plane, in scenes that resemble the physical world 100%. Why? Because the guide says, he has not learned that lesson/issue yet. So he relived each experience(each scene) again, until the right response or wisdom came from him.

Eg, (click in consciousness), Scene - in a residential steet, he saw his small dog being bitten dead by a big dog. First reaction: "Why you son of a -, I am going to kill you, you bad dog!"

(Click- reset) Scene - same scene, he saw his small dog being bitten dead by a big dog. Reaction: "Oh no,,, please (cries and shakes & loses emotional control), please big dog, please let go of my dog's dead body... If only I didnt let him out today,,,(guilt, depressed)"

(Click- reset) Scene - same scene, "Well, my friend, we did have some great moments together. I treasure the love, the joy you brought to me. I am eternally thankful, we will meet again one day" (Gratitude, release, non-attachment)

Next experience, next issue leading to new wisdom and self-discovery.

rodimus

01-27-2005, 03:32 AM

Oh, in his final book called "Ultimate Journey" written before his passing in 1995, RObert Monroe reveals who that Light Being is. You will be 1001% surprised and never in a thousand years would u expect it to be! Not Jesus, not Buddha, not god or some angel. not your aunt may nor uncle bob either!

;) best description of life i ever heard or read ever!

Thinking Things

01-27-2005, 06:55 AM

I won't be able to answer until next week due to not having access to a computer at home but here goes

Do you believe in Re-incarnation and if so, what makes you sure that it is a fact?

just curious............

Personally, I hope it is true but I would be most interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter. I have a hard time with this as basically, whilst I hope it is true, does it even matter if you have no conscius recollection of previous existences?

Joe
Just as one is free to believe or not to believe in reincarnation, isn't there also a doubt that as one's personal belief is made up of many sincerely held beliefs itself, not all are understood in a way that gives one the best answer? Could we have lived before is an interesting question and the answer is yours to enjoy, but arriving at it is fraught and must carry the fear that the beliefs of others hold more truth, when in fact they are just beliefs too. You may believe whatever you wish, and so by thinking back to see how you came to hold that belief you can test it for the personal worth it still holds for you.

CrystalHale

01-29-2005, 04:30 PM

I was 7 or 8 years old when I decided that, IF there was a God (some higher wiser spirit or energy with the ability to create universes and beings), there had to be reincarnation. Reincarnation allows me to be myself without constantly feeling any guilt. You be the best that you can be...as long as no one is getting hurt and you are happy, how can it be wrong? And if you do wrong on to others, it will come back at you.

It was simple for me. Obviously we weren't created perfect or we would all be alike. Perfect is rather subjective as well. I doubted that being born a woman was automatically a bad thing, Eve ruined it for all of us? I couldn't believe a God that was going to create imperfect beings that he would give us one life to get everything right and if we failed, we'd go to Hell. It wouldn't be a forgiving God and that in itself seems imperfect and unGodly. I can't believe that he would send a bunch of us to Hell for believing the wrong thing, as some faiths suggest. He gave us enough capacity to really screw up, wouldn't he give us many opportunities to get it right?

There are questions I have about why I am going through something, and past lives seems to answer the familiarity of certain people, or why you seem to have been brought together with someone else, to work out things. I leave my mind open for new beliefs, but so far for these almost 30 years reincarnation works for me. It gives me a guideline of how to live my life and I can live with myself.

I don't believe in organized religion for myself but others must do whatever they must to get through life. I don't need a translater...if we were created imperfectly, why would I listen to some imperfect human's translation God's spoken word to which is later translated by another imperfect being years ago on what I should be doing to get to God? I think I can figure it out myself. There is a common thread among most religions...I think we can all agree upon that and if we stick to those commons principles, whether there is reincarnation or not, we should all be okay.

Neurotic1

01-31-2005, 05:08 PM

I don't need a translater...if we were created imperfectly, why would I listen to some imperfect human's translation God's spoken word to which is later translated by another imperfect being years ago on what I should be doing to get to God? I think I can figure it out myself. There is a common thread among most religions...I think we can all agree upon that and if we stick to those commons principles, whether there is reincarnation or not, we should all be okay.
I couldn't agree more on these particular points.

Pam119

03-23-2005, 02:11 PM

I am with you Terry. . .I am also ready for a nice resting place in a more positive realm. This life has and is still teaching me a lot, and I have to say there have been some bad moments, but not as bad as some others. Reincarnation, maybe so, maybe not, I hope we have a choice.

Pam119

03-23-2005, 02:26 PM

I don't know about past KARMA, but I have experienced what I call "Instant Karma". There have been times when I have shown my bad side, i.e. not thinking about the after effects of talking down about someone, being rude, losing my temper at someone. Well guess what, it does come back to you in the present, you don't have to wait until the next life! The same has happened to others that have been unjust to me. So I guess the old saying about what you sow is what you reap is true. I really am still so imperfect. Still working on it.

Simple Guy

03-23-2005, 09:12 PM

Pam119,

I like your term "Instant Karma." It's remarkable how many people go
through life without recognizing that the positions they find themselves
in are largely consequences of their own behaviors. As you've done,
it's good to recognize this karmic connection in the present moment and
hopefully avoid long and short-term adverse consequences. On the
more positive flip side, positive behaviors result in immediate karmic consequences,
too. Sometimes the effects are subtle, though, and not readily
apparent. But my belief is that good results in good.

islandaddy

04-13-2005, 07:40 PM

HI- I'm a rookie here looking for more info on self hypnosis as a research tool for reincarnation study...
What is harder to accept about reincarnation than this incarnation?? :eek:

DrTadJames

04-14-2005, 11:14 PM

Dear Daddy,
(Sounds weird doesn't it?) Time Line Therapy is the best for that. See www.timelinetherapy.net!

coyotekin

07-11-2005, 01:46 PM

I am firm believer in reincarnation. I believe that with each incarnation we are meant to learn a lesson. Should we fail to learn it then like history we are doomed to repeat it, only this time around perhaps to understand and move on. As we succeed in learning a new lesson we continually move forth to the next lesson in a next incarnation. I believe we are forever learning and you can never learn everything. So you could say that I believe the soul is a thing that can evolve, grow and improve.

I am a spiritual person, not a religious person. I believe what I believe because it feels right to me. I leave others alone to believe what they feel is right to/for them. Who am I to argue with that? :)

As a side note I am only adding my belief and not tearing apart anyone else's. Which means I do not care or wish to know if anyone else feels that I am right or wrong. Leave me to my happiness as I do so for you. :)

hypno_gk

07-18-2005, 01:14 AM

Whether reincarnation is only for humans or all living beings ?

Don

07-18-2005, 01:38 AM

Mmmm. Questioning like Yoda you are?

Dizzy

07-20-2005, 07:16 PM

I find that reincarnation seems the only logical possibility, not because of moral issues, but because of science. E=MC^2 states that energy equals matter, and so everything in the universe can be expressed as either matter or energy (as there is nothing else). As energy cannot be destroyed whatever causes the soul must survive. The fact that there is one is seen from the experiment that proved that when you die 21g leave the body, from no air loss or water or anything. These facts show only one logical conclusion; reincarnation!

teadaze

07-22-2005, 09:54 AM

You're argument Dizzy, is based on a rather dubious experiment performed in 1907. I am not sure if it has been repeated since then.

Even if it was true that 21g left your body when you died, it doesn't provide a very good argument for the existence of a soul - and even less of an argument for the existence of reincarnation.

I cannot pretend to know either way and remain open minded. I need a bit more persuading though!

Dizzy

07-22-2005, 10:35 AM

It just seems to me that no science contradicts it, and there is a theory that can be supported by evidence, however flimsy that evidence is. Science disproves a God, as you cannot interact without affecting yourself,, and so God would not be perfect, as you cannot change but remain 'perfect'. However the research into neuroscience has led me towards a soul, as the brain is an open-ended system, but my theories always come up with the conclusion that some other system must be needed to curb our thought processes, the idea that it is adaptable removes all problems of how the system works. It is quite simple really. However there is no visable system for the regulation of the open-ended design. I have a feeling that the subconscious is this system, and it is what is called a 'soul'. I have some theories how it interacts with the rest of the world, but this is as far as I can go safely without extra information.

Don

07-22-2005, 10:42 AM

Merely because there has been no contradictory science to something does not mean it is accurate. That's why it's a theory and not a fact, a theory that remains operative until someone can give superceding science.

The interpretation of data which you gave, that the 21g is a soul, is just that--an interpretation of data. Scientists interpreted the collection of bones as the Piltdown man before later interpretation showed it to be a hoax. Same data. Different interpretation.

Luckily, past life regression therapy does not, and has never, required the belief in actual past lives to work well.

Science will never prove or disprove God or God's qualities. Science examines the physical world and God would exist in a metaphysical world. When you can produce a metaphysical ruler, and only then, can science be used to measure God.

Dizzy

07-22-2005, 10:55 AM

j0hnny#

07-22-2005, 11:10 AM

I'm tending to be more persuaded by the points against, made by t and d here - and supposing this experiment was conclusive, why is the logical conclusion reincarnation? as opposed to say disembodiedment? Anything beyond that (supposing it's a reasonable conclusion), and any scientist worth his salt would shave of the rest with Occam's razor (principle of parsimony), I think? (i.e. not to postulate entities beyond what is necessary to explain the case. Mind you they might not even go as far as disembodiement on this one, I'm not too sure???). Certainly it strikes me as a highly dubious argument (like teadaze already said).

Dizzy

07-22-2005, 11:21 AM

I must remind you that the experiment's results do not matter, they just add strength to an idea that is easy to workout without it. When you die the soul leaves, but it must still exist, and another one cannot be created, according to einstein's rules that have been constistant throughout the sphere's of science. So when someone is born the soul from the dead person must enter them. From the research into neuroscience done so far they cannot find the soul/sunconscious. It must be immaterial, and so must remain.

j0hnny#

07-22-2005, 11:24 AM

So when someone is born the soul from the dead person must enter them

why not simply 'float about'?

j0hnny#

07-22-2005, 11:25 AM

i.e, why 'must'?

Dizzy

07-22-2005, 11:30 AM

Because the new person cannot have a soul appearing from nothing, that is impossible. So the souls must 'recycle', as everything else in the entire universe does!

Don

07-22-2005, 02:55 PM

Of course I agree with you. It is nothing more than theory. However it, if not the simplest answer, certainly is one that requires no fundermental constants to be broken. Maybe there is some way for them to be broken, but isn't it more likely it is the one that follows such rules that we have found so far is correct? I challenge you to find one scrap of evidence that it is impossible. (P.S the 21g is not a necessary part of my arguement, it works anyway!)

As you may know, it is impossible to prove a negative. But the thing is, you are presenting a theory and it is not up to others to prove or disprove it for you. Rather, when an objection appears, it requires someone who is presenting a theory to prove that the objection is in error.

For example, your entire theory presupposes that souls have weight in the physical world. I would contend that the soul is not physical and therefore, has no weight at all.

According to the Holmesian concept, when you discard everything that is not supported by the evidence, whatever is left, no matter how unlikely, must be the truth.

Prove that the soul has physical weight, and I'll be far more inclined to agree with you.

Don

07-22-2005, 02:59 PM

Because the new person cannot have a soul appearing from nothing, that is impossible. So the souls must 'recycle', as everything else in the entire universe does!

Why is that impossible?
What existed before the big bang?
Have you never heard of creation ex nihilo?
Why couldn't there simply be one "ubersoul" of which all souls are just a part? New souls would then come from the ubersoul and never need to be recycled.

Dizzy

07-22-2005, 03:13 PM

There was no big bang. Or moreover, there was a big bang, but there was a universe before. It has always existed, and will always exist. Everything is either energy or matter, and so the soul must be one. Plus once more I remind you that I do not base my case upon the 21g, more upon the theoretical science. By the way, this is supported by evidence of principles carried out on other things, and nothing has acted differently to how I am saying. Why should this one thing be different? Oh, and to a certain extent it is possible to prove a negative, such as disproving the statement: "Objects always rotate two times when hit with a spoon". I know this is quite a silly example, but I hope you get my point.

Merlin

07-22-2005, 08:35 PM

> E=MC^2 states that energy equals matter,...

Agreed.

>and so everything in the universe can be expressed as either matter or energy

That's quite a jump!
There are many things in the universe which are neither.

>(as there is nothing else).

A guess on your part.

>These facts show only one logical conclusion; reincarnation!

These are limited theories, not facts.
and nothing you've stated would necessitate reincarnation.

Merlin

07-22-2005, 08:37 PM

>Because the new person cannot have a soul appearing from nothing, that is impossible.

Then where did the *first* soul come from?

>So the souls must 'recycle',

Not necessarily.

>as everything else in the entire universe does!

That's an interesting assumption.

Merlin

07-22-2005, 08:40 PM

>There was no big bang.

Interesting belief.

>Or moreover, there was a big bang, but there was a universe before.

You really believe that?

>Everything is either energy or matter

There is much more beyond energy & matter.

>and so the soul must be one.

Nope.

Dizzy

07-23-2005, 02:46 AM

We have experienced nothng that is not energy or matter. And there was a universe before, because that is the only explination that doesn't break rules. The soul cannot be destroyed as it must be energy or matter as we have no evidence of anything else, also for the same reason the soul cannot be created. So therefore the old souls MUST enter new bodies.

j0hnny#

07-23-2005, 08:51 AM

This is all rather interesting and I think Dizzy is making not too bad a case for it. I have another question about the use of 'must': why 'must' the soul be energy or matter, and granted your argument, where does it go before it moves from one being to the next? Also, where did the first soul come from if its only a process of recycling?

Dizzy

07-23-2005, 09:45 AM

I use must because I am using scientific information as it is now. Now we know of nothing that is not energy or matter. There was no first soul, as there was no beginning of the universe. There were always souls.

j0hnny#

07-23-2005, 11:51 AM

Are you entitled to 'must' though as scientific information is restricted to what is observable? if I open up your head I won't be able to observe your 'soul'. The infinite past (and future) of the universe is perfectly logical and reasonable conclusion to draw. Although, it still strikes me as something of a mystery as to why there should be something rather than nothing. I guess you are saying because there are souls now, there have always been souls - in accordance with principle of the conservation of energy. I don't know if or how this figures, but scientists have had to resort to theories of pretty weird entities (neutrinos) in order to preserve the principle. Feel welcome to slate me on this one - I don't know much about it. Anyway, I'm not sure you could equate a soul to matter or energy - a soul, seems to be, that for which there is matter or energy. Like i say I could open up your anatomy and find your soul - supposing I could, how could I possibly know that's what it was. Subjectivity seems entirely personal.... a few thoughts

Merlin

07-23-2005, 12:19 PM

>We have experienced nothng that is not energy or matter.

That *you* are currently aware of.

>And there was a universe before, because that is the only explination that doesn't break rules.

Again, That *you* are currently aware of.

>The soul cannot be destroyed as it must be energy or matter as we have no evidence of anything else,

Again, That *you* are currently aware of.

>So therefore the old souls MUST enter new bodies.

Why *must* they?
Can't you think of other possibilities?

Merlin

07-23-2005, 12:23 PM

Keep in mind Dizzy, 'science' is only a *progress report* of current understanding.
It is not an absolute truth.

Dizzy

07-23-2005, 12:35 PM

True, but I think a theory that follows all the rules that we have never found broken is more likely than a theory that flies in the face of all we have learnt? I use must as I am assuming that our current information is correct, is you stray from that assumption there can be no thought of what is after, as there is no way of even gaguing information agaist each other.

Merlin

07-23-2005, 01:30 PM

>I use must as I am assuming that our current information is correct,

I don't agree that your explanation is the only possible, therefore I question it.

For instance, you stated:
>Because the new person cannot have a soul appearing from nothing, that is impossible. So the souls must 'recycle', as everything else in the entire universe does!

Cannot a soul enter into a 'body' (for lack of a better term) only once?
Why must it do so repeatedly?

Dizzy

07-23-2005, 01:42 PM

Ok. There might be a huge number of souls, and so the chance of your soul entering another body is minute, but this still follows my theory. You may question it, but this is how I worked it out.

Don

07-23-2005, 07:39 PM

Dizzy--

Freedom...

It's not energy.
It's not matter.

So I guess for you, freedom doesn't exist?

j0hnny#

07-23-2005, 07:55 PM

Dizzy

07-24-2005, 04:58 AM

getting heavily into the presuppositions of all this......... by what is a 'soul' a soul? By virtue of what? Is there a criterion for something being a soul? Can someone say what this is without ultimately reducing this to conventional use of a word (hope this isn't too obscure, have just had a few beez and couple o j's <hey, it is saturday night afteral :) l>)?

I would say a soul is a part of a being that is not visible when examined (so far), and will endure after his death.

Freedom is not an object, it is an idea. A pattern in social economics. A soul cannot be a pattern (I did think of that) because it is ever changing, and there is no sign of it visible.

teadaze

07-24-2005, 10:52 AM

>Freedom is not an object, it is an idea.

Is a soul an object?

>A soul cannot be a pattern (I did think of that) because it is ever changing, and there is no sign of it visible.

You are sure of this? I have not yet conducted any soul-research so I can't be so sure.

Dizzy

07-24-2005, 12:05 PM

We can find no sign of any pattern in the human synapse that could create this. Plus a soul by definition is enduring, where as a pattern is destroyed the moment anything interacts with it.

Don

07-24-2005, 03:13 PM

All energy and matter are formed of patterns.

If, according to your definition, a soul is "ever changing," then it is, by your definition, "destroyed" every time it changes. Therefore, if it changes all the time, it cannot endure.

Your definition of "soul" makes no sense and is clearly self-contradictory.

Dizzy

07-24-2005, 03:31 PM

Hmm, looking over, didn't mean ever changing, must have been drunk when I said that... But an idea is a pattern, an object could be thought of as a type of pattern, but self contained. Patterns are conventionally thought to be made up of energy/matter in a special way, not the achual energy/matter itself.

Don

07-24-2005, 03:53 PM

Respectfully, this still makes your defintion of "soul" unclear. You claim it is either energy or matter and you are limited in that you cannot conceive of any other possibility. You have, as a result of what I would consider your debatable assumptions, come up with a definition that has resulted in you saying one thing then another about it, even though they are contradictory.

I don't think you were drunk at all. Rather, it was your assumptions as to what a soul must be, combined with your assumed characteristics of the soul, that have resulted in contradictions.

There are several people, including myself, who stridently disagree with what you are saying. That is not because you have been simply been presenting ideas that we disagree with. Rather, it is because you have been dogmatically presenting them as the only possibility. I don't know if you realize it, but what that does is state that those who dare to disagree with you are stupid and ignorant. After all, if yours is the only possibility, then anyone who thinks otherwise is a moron.

I assure you, none of those who disagree with you are morons, stupid, or ignorant. And it just might be that they have something of value and it might even be that you are incorrect in your dogma.

Dizzy

07-24-2005, 04:12 PM

I have not been presenting them how you say, or at least I did not intend you to interpret it this way. I was describing the thoughts that go through my head. As far as I can see, there is no other possiblility. However if you can give me another option I will revise my ideas. And I do not believe that those who disagree with me are morons (although I must admit when younger that was the conclusion I often reached), I simply find difficulty explaining the thought patterns that came up with these results, and so have problems understanding why you do not reach the same conclusions. I repeat myself a little I will admit, hoping mostly that by rephrasing it you might see what I am trying to say.

Finally, I ask for your patience, I am a slightly unusual child when it comes to the working of my mind, and so I might get a little dogmatic. I apoligise now, in case I continue in the same vein.

Don

07-25-2005, 04:42 AM

Respectfully, several people have given you alternatives and you have discarded them all.

You're saying you didn't intend your comments to be interpreted as calling others idiots, but, in fact, you wrote:

"I use must because I am using scientific information as it is now. Now we know of nothing that is not energy or matter. There was no first soul, as there was no beginning of the universe. There were always souls."

You use the royal "we."
You claim that your interpretation is scientific, implying that anything else is not.
You claim that nothing could exist that is not energy or matter, but I don't think you'd like it if your freedom was taken away. Freedom is neither matter nor energy.
Your claim that there were always souls may be correct. However you have provided not one iota of proof to support your claim, but you present your opinions as if anyone who dares to disagree with you is a moron.

You may not believe that those who disagree with you are morons, but your language and attitude refute your claim.

Dizzy

07-25-2005, 04:52 AM

I assumed you would at least be as versed in science as a fourteen year old, and so assumed you would know what I was refering to. We was all of humanity, refering to what could be done. Freedom is not an object. It could only be described as a pattern. This is the relation of matter/energy in time and space. Not an object. My claim is based upon the idea that according to my data it is very difficult to imagine them as not being matter or energy. Consiquently einstein's principles disprove the possibility of the soul ever having a beginning. As I think I have stated before (and if not I am sorry), I am working on the idea that our science as it stands is correct. Without this assumption, no discussion can really take place, as you cannot know what is going on at all. Also it is much more likely that the answer which fits in to our science as it stands is correct than one that doesn't.

Don

07-25-2005, 12:23 PM

So you think it's okay for you to use "we" when you write because you speak for "all of humanity?" When was the election held that gave you this right? I don't remember voting for you.

A soul is an object? Please show me a soul, for objects can certainly either be detected through the senses (if it is matter) or via changes in other energy fields (if it is energy) as you contend. If you can't do this clearly and unambiguously, then the soul, by your definition, is as much of an object as is the concept of freedom.

The fact that you find using your imagination "difficult" points to your limitations, not reality. You fall back on Einstein (where did he specifically write that souls are without beginning?), but ignore his statement, "Imagination is more important than knowledge." Also, because Einstein didn't have access to the phenomenon of red shift and the more recent discovery of dark matter, he was forced to put forth the theory of an energy he called the "universal constant." This simply doesn't exist. How do we know that your interpretations, based on your difficulties with imagination, are any more accurate?

Your assumption that "our science as it stands is correct" is completely contrary to the notion of modern science. Rather, it is accurate to say that "our science can be used to predict behavior based on current observation. New observations will result in changes to scientific theory."

Your claim that without accepting the dogmatic "our science as it stands is correct...no discussion can really take place" is the antithesis of scientific practice in any field, from astronomy to zoology, where real scientists are constantly looking to expand and even change the concepts that came before. In the so-called "hard sciences," the technique known as the "scientific method" is the litmus test for making such changes.

Claiming that only things that fit into "our science" (do you own it?) is correct is no different than claiming that only things that agree with "our bible" are correct.

Dizzy

07-25-2005, 03:57 PM

You are beinning to try my patience. With respect, please do not nitpick every word. I hope you know what I am meaning when I use this language, everyone else I speak to usually does. I am talking about the level of scientific descovery that there is so far. That is when I can use we, as the word I is hardly appropreate? I do not think I have ever said I find my imagination difficult, but that without taking some things for granted you cannot have a proper discussion. If you can argue a way to disprove or throw disrepute upon an idea, I will discard it. Dark matter is not yet proven as far as I know, and it is going onto the edge of scientific information. There most is theory, and so until something disproves a well established constand, the constant is much more likely to be correct. The situation when I use the "dogmatic" is only when no proof can be used, such as in this case. A theoretical situation cannot be used as evidence, so this is all we can work on!!!!!!!

Don

07-25-2005, 08:04 PM

You're not speaking, here, you're writing. Writing requires different skills because someone reading your writing can't also hear your tonal inflections or see your body language. But I guess you didn't know that there's a difference between writing and talking.

Unfortunately, discussing this with you has become boring due to your intense dogmatism and lack of imagination. People here have presented other possibilities to you and you simply discard them without even considering them because they won't fit into your dogma.

You've accused me of not knowing science to the level of a teenager, but you have not kept up with recent scientific discoveries such as the discovery of an entire galaxy that is mostly dark matter ( http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/dark_matter_galaxy.html?2322005 ). They identified it as such after five years of eliminating other possibilities, the opposite of your method of simply saying "I don't believe it so it can't be so."

So we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'll be open to possibilities and listen to what others have to say and you can do what you will. I'll just leave you to consider the words of Shakespeare:

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

--From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)

Dizzy

07-25-2005, 08:20 PM

Why do you throw every word I say in my face? I am quite shocked at the misinterpretation of the statements I put down. I accept the dark matter factor, as you have just shown me evidence. That is all that is needed! If you do not want to discuss, then fine. I have eliminated almost all other theories about this, and found holes in those you presented. I am open to suggestions, but have something to back them up! An idea is nothing on it's own. So if you don't want to give your information with something to back it up (as you just did with dark matter), then there is little point. as we could argue all day, but with different data never reach a conclusion. Do you understand my meaning? I do not wish you to get a false impression of me, and if I have given one I am sorry. But you have a totally incorrect view of me.

Merlin

07-25-2005, 08:47 PM

>I assumed you would at least be as versed in science as a fourteen year old

Nice that you would condescend enough to talk with us.

>Consiquently einstein's principles disprove the possibility of the soul ever having a beginning.

Could it not have a beginning *as a soul*?
Just as energy may not be energy, but rather matter at some point?

>I am working on the idea that our science as it stands is correct.

Big mistake.
Science facts change daily.
New information outdates the old.

>Without this assumption, no discussion can really take place,

Not true.
We need not limit ourselves in that way.

>as you cannot know what is going on at all.

you really think you know what is going on?!??

>Also it is much more likely that the answer which fits in to our science as it stands is correct than one that doesn't.

Likely science, or at least today's understanding, will have to be updated.

Don

07-26-2005, 02:42 AM

Why do you throw every word I say in my face?

So you should be free to post anything, no matter how dogmatic or inaccurate, and nobody should be able to refute you.

I am quite shocked at the misinterpretation of the statements I put down. [

You should study the science of communication. One of the basic tenets of the science is that it is up to the one doing the communication to make sure that his or her message is correctly understood by the person(s) receiving the communication. Is it just possible that you're not communicating well and don't realize it?

I accept the dark matter factor, as you have just shown me evidence. That is all that is needed!

But you didn't accept it before. That means you don't trust what I say being accurate. Without trust, communication is very difficult, especially since you've been assuming that what I say is wrong.

I have not discounted that you are allowed to believe any way you wish. I accept that what you post is your truth. But by not allowing others here to express their truths you are treating us as if we are ignorant morons who deserve to be treated like trash. Perhaps you are simply a poor communicator and don't even realize what you're doing. I don't know.

I have a deep appreciation for all people seeking truth. I have an innate fear of those who feel they have found truth and that everyone else is wrong.

If you do not want to discuss, then fine. I have eliminated almost all other theories about this, and found holes in those you presented.

I would love to discuss! But your dogma eliminates any discussion. Your attitude has simply been "either you agree with me or you're wrong." That doesn't allow for discussion.

Further, you have not found ANY "holes" in anything I've presented. What you have done is start with a dogma and simply discard anything that doesn't fit your dogma.

There is another group of people who practice this method. They are known as "creationists" or followers of the idea of "intelligent design." They begin with a dogma--usually a literalist interpretation of the Bible--and either reinterpret everything to fit their dogma or simply ignore or discard it. That is exactly what you are doing and it does not allow for discussion.

I am open to suggestions, but have something to back them up!

Respectfully, your previous posts complete deny this. Perhaps you think that is what you do, but you simply discard any support for other people's ideas if it doesn't fit into your dogma.

An idea is nothing on it's own.

It's so sad that you feel that way. Ideas such as liberty, freedom, love, democracy have changed the world, but you think they're nothing.

So if you don't want to give your information with something to back it up (as you just did with dark matter), then there is little point.

I note that you didn't even bother to say, "Oops! I was wrong. Sorry about that." This is typical of dogmatists. They can't ever admit that they were ever wrong.

But if you were wrong in your contention about dark matter, isn't it possible that you could be wrong about your other dogmas?

as we could argue all day, but with different data never reach a conclusion. [/qote]

Unfortunately, you do not argue (in this case meaning discuss different points). You have not refuted anything. You simply deny, deny, deny. That is not a philosophical argument.

[qupte]Do you understand my meaning? I do not wish you to get a false impression of me, and if I have given one I am sorry. But you have a totally incorrect view of me.

A belief from ancient India is that one of the things that brings unhappiness is what has been translated as "ego." By this is meant that your image of yourself is at variance with the way others see you. Your words have clearly shown who you are and what you believe. Unfortunately, you seem not to be able to see, with clarity, what your words say about you.

Good luck on your path. I do hope that nobody's karma runs over your dogma!

error265

07-31-2005, 04:37 AM

Seriously this forums got an attitude probelm hence why i dont speak here anymore....Dizzy knows what he's talking about and everyone just goes off topic, if you want to talk about how to structure essays go to some other forum not this one....We're supposed to be talking about hypnosis!

if i was going to be honest, the ratio on this forum for intellegence:arrogance
is way out of proportion thankfully i'm now at a stage where i know what i need to know and find forums only to bore my intellect............i've got pawadan's to do that! lol (not dizzy though he does actually entertain my mind)
anyway, please take this as constructive critisism not an insult, but if it is considered an insult Ban me as you may wish.

Terry (existing)

07-31-2005, 09:02 AM

I happened to watch a new series on TV on Friday night, it is called "Past Lives" and is based on the experiences of several people who have undergone hypnosis for regression to other lives. My observation was just as I might have expected based on human nature. The client told her story, and it was obvious that she was not experiencing anything, just recalling, which of course could be imagination just as well as it could be an incident. However, when being commented on by the so called expert, he/she missed every clue that might mitigate against the conclusion he/she wanted to come to. For example, when regressed to one life as a farmer, the client (female) recalled speaking in a different language, but when challenged as to what language, THOUGHT it was german, but wasn't sure. She was not asked to say a few words in this language so black mark to the practitioner who was obviously inexperienced, or working to prove a point.
When asked about the place were this farm was, the name of the community was not forthcoming, just a guess of the first letter of the name, and somewere near Hamburg, and when a check was made it was found that many small communities began with a "B" but only one had a church which was recalled in the regression. This then it was decided was the place to trace the client's other life. A search of church records didn't find the name as given, but did find one close, Herman not Fritz, so it was decided this was a hit, though the surname differed also. If I had done my research in such a sloppy manner, I would be ashamed of myself, yet the expert, who wrote books on this, was very happy with these faulty conclusions, and suggested it proved Reincarnation. Now I don't pretend to know if Reincarnation is fact or fiction, it certainly is not provable, but I do know sloppy work when I see it, and I do recognise acceptance of faulty or suspect information in order to direct research in a direction that is desired rather then proven. If you are reading a book on this, remember the expert who wrote it may be the one who was willing to accept anything that proved what he wanted to write about, and ignored the rest, so don't trust books.....

Don

07-31-2005, 02:55 PM

People almost always find what they look for. If they're looking for proof of past lives, they will find it. If they're looking for proof past lives aren't objectively real, they will find that, too.

Untrained believers in past lives will do this kind of sloppy work. Untrained believers in the non-existance of past lives will also do this kind of sloppy work. Objective observers (real skeptics--not the Randi-ized or P&T-like debunkers who falsely call themselves skeptics) such as yourself observe with an open mind actually seeking truth.

It's too bad more people in this matter aren't like you.

Terry (existing)

07-31-2005, 07:00 PM

Thanks Don, but from my observations when reading the posts of other senior members of this board, it would seem the we all hold honesty to a very high standard, and if we can it shouldn't be too difficult for others to follow. Nothing is gained by cheating except perhaps money, and even that will not be gained to the maximum. Honesty is the best policy, simply because it is readily defensible.......

j0hnny#

08-01-2005, 12:53 PM

error266?

:)

inandout

08-23-2005, 03:16 PM

Im not sure if it's fact but my friends 6 year old described Germany and Hitler and said that she remembers being there holding a cross in her hand???

And another friends daughter when she was 5 said to her mother, "You're a much nicer mummy in this life".

SO hu knows

Kate

Chuck

09-01-2005, 10:00 PM

When I first saw this thread, or whatever you call what started all this, I was genuinely interested... and after reading the first page, I was exhausted. And this interested me. Im curious to know, if possible, how and why this happens to some and not others. Anyone?

And, did you have a similar experience? or not? have you noticed similar reactions to other things?

-Chuck-
"i have never said anything clever"
intelligence is beyond words

Five

03-18-2006, 04:11 PM

I do believe in reincarnation. I'll not explain why.

I wonder why there was so much discussion here on the "soul" being energy or matter.
No one mentioned consciousness. Do you think that this "soul" just may be consciousness? As such wouldn't it have energy? Wouldn't it according to its individual experiences have, perhaps an adjusted frequency which would cause it to be attracted to a conditon in a new body where it would get a chance to again readjust its frequency? Presumably it is in search of equalibrium, as are all things in the universe. Or so the theory goes.

There is a theory that everything has consciousness, that indeed the universe itself is consciousness, of which we are a "spinoff". Our "prime directive" is to create.

ajnata

03-24-2006, 12:54 AM

interesting topic.

well i will say straight up that i believe in rebirth and i believe it to be fact. but as far as evidence, these types of things are of personal belief and i dont think can be proven either way. while i do think its interesting to hear what others believe, i'm not into pushing my beliefs as much as i believe them to be true. (lol too much believing goin on ;) )

so this is what i believe.
beings are constantly being born, dying, and reborn based upon their karma (physical, mental, and verbal action) rebirth is not a particularly good thing and i dont particularly want to be stuck in this cycle for many more lives.

be well

skip

03-24-2006, 09:41 AM

Is this rebirth a choosing thing, as in a faster track to paridise?

Or are we caught up in some 'mindless' mechanation of karma and cosmic debt until the final tally is paid?

just wondering,

skip

Since my last was to be born an East Tennesseean, I suppose that is Reintarnation!

ajnata

03-24-2006, 10:57 AM

hiya Skip,

it depends upon what you mean by choose. we are stuck in a cycle of rebirth that includes not just human rebirth but you can be reborn anywhere from the deepest hells to the highest heavenly abodes. the catch is, all these lives are impermanent and if for example you are born into heaven, you will eventually die and be born somewhere else. all of this is dependant upon your karma. and the choice is what kind of karma will you create in this life and will you try to jump out of the cycle. if one waits for the law of karma to end in order to gain freedom then they will be waiting a very very long time. it seems better to me to get of the wheel now.

once again my disclaimer: this is my belief and representative of my religious community im no making any claim beyond that.

skip

03-24-2006, 01:45 PM

Well that partially answered my question.

And I recognize this just represents a belief and it isnt my intention to try and determine right or wrong, just to learn something more about the belief. Im not trying to argue, or trap you, but I may ask a tough question or two if they come up. And if there are any 'I dont know' answers, feel free, and no harm.

As I understood it; the CHOICE is in how we live, wherever we land. And that landing is the result of those choices. And Karma keeps 'score'. :)

BUT we are 'stuck' in the machinations of karma, and the 'structural set up'.

OK three follow ups, if you will.

1. How did we 'enter' into this system, and how do we get out, if ever?

2. If there is an entry point and an exit point, where were we before and where are we after?

3. Who set this up, and did we have any choice about the original entry into the system (if it applies)?

thanks,

skip

ajnata

03-24-2006, 03:33 PM

hiya Skip,

you posted some very interesting questions. im not quite sure if i can offer a satisfactory answer but here i go anyway :D

1: as for how we got stuck into the cycle, i dont know. but i tend to look at it like this, if i got hit by a car, im not going ask to know the model and color of the car before i get medical treatment. i dont know the original cause however i do not feel like i need to know either. now how do we get out is of much more interest to myself. this will depend on who you ask and what system they ascribe to. generally though most seem to agree that the path out involves purification of the three karmas (body, speech, and mind) and the ending of illusions in the mind, usually achieved through meditation and or devotional practices.

2: as for the before part, i can not say. as for the end, i would ask who is i or we. this isnt meant to be sarcastic or anything like that. the end point for myself and others is the disolution of the barriers of self and other. it is seeing the true reality of things as they are. it is freedom from being constantly propelled by one's karma. i realize that all of these things are abstractions but i really don't feel i have the experience nor the linguistic capabilities to describe it beyond this.

3: i dont personally believe some divine being set this up. unless that being is sadistic and enjoys the sufferings of others, i dont think it is plausible that some god set this up or anything like that. at least if i found out some deity set this up, i would be sure to keep my distance. this cycle has been in motion long before the earth existed and will continue long after this planet ceases to exist. like i mentioned above, i dont know the original cause and i dont know if such a thing could ever be known because every cause has its effect and it seems that every cause is the effect of something else . this being so it is impossible for me to say whether or not there was any intellegent choice involved. i would hope tho that in one of my previous lives billions of years ago, i didnt decide to leave a free existance for countless lives of enslavement to my karma.

none of this probably provides any type of definitive answers to your questions. but i do hope it was at least of some interest.

be well

Poodle

03-24-2006, 10:17 PM

skip

03-25-2006, 09:54 AM

ajnata,

Thank you so much for your answers.

If you dont mind I want to paraphrase them so I can be sure I have accurately grasped the concept.

1. There is a system that has been set up (not necessarily by 'anything' except the natural order of things), which we are involved in.

2. That system is charactarized by a continual series of constantly being born, living and dying. Lives, in which we theoretically eventually learn to free ourselves from the Karmic influence. The law of karma being the only necessary law.

3. It is not inevetable that we eventually learn, we could theoretically be continually cycling forever.

4. Once free of the karmic influence, we are no longer forced thru the cycles of lives anymore, and presumably live (forever?) a different sort of existance presumably better than the lives of those still stuck in the karmic cycle.

5. This different sort of existance may or may not be 'outside' of the physical realm we currently live in, it will be an irrelevent point at that time.

Does the above paraphrasing reasonably accurately reflect the belief(s)?

If my paraphrasing is reasonably accurate I have a couple more follow up questions.

1. An eternity of recycling seems to me to make it inevetable that even the stupidest of us eventually will reach this state of being outside of karma. Unless someone is in a hurry, why not just relax and enjoy the ride, it isnt all bad?

2. If people are leaving the system, ie becomming outside of karma, why is the population growing instead of shrinking? Where are all these new folks (souls) comming into the system, that apparently werent there before, comming from? (That begs an earlier question I know.) Could they represent people who escaped karma and have now fallen back under its influence?

thanks,

skip

ajnata

03-25-2006, 09:42 PM

Hiya Skip,

can you follow me around and explain this to people :D when i try to, because you make it sound so much more logical than i feel my own words do lol

yes your paraphrasing is correct :cool:

yes you are correct, eventually every being will escape. and yes, there are people who feel that they should not hurry because they have all the time in the world. there are also others who promise not to escape the cycle until they have helped other beings do so. of course it is not all that bad. the issue is, things are impermanent and while we may have good lives now we might not later. in this system of belief, reincarnation is not limited to humans or even earth. beings can be reborn in many forms including hells, animals, and heavens among others. we have a good life now, burn up a whole bunch of positive karma and not create anymore and end up in a bad place in the next life. also it is believed that the human form is the best existance for getting out of the cycle. there is to much suffering in the lower realms and too much pleasure in the upper levels, both are distractions to the one engaging in spiritual practices. human life has just enough suffering to motivate one and just enough pleasure to balance it out. also a side note, this realms of existance are not just physical places but are states of mind.

to address your last question let me get a little theological. there are 32 planes of existance that can be subdivided into realms of form, realms of formlessness, and realms of desire. we live in the realm of desire which is further subdivided into six realms: the hells (avicci), the hungry ghosts (pretas: these beings are usually the ones who haunt people and cause all sorts of problems), animals, humans, jealous gods (assuras: kind of like titans),, and gods (devas) all of these realms are filled with beings and we cycle through them life after life. the form and formless realms are the top worlds and usually contains spiritual beings on their way out of the cycle. the rest of us have cycle thru the six desire realms life after life and as mentioned above beings are not limited to earth. there are countless planets out there in the universe and science is starting to discover ideas of multi dimensions. the reason why earths population keeps growing: lots of beings are creating the karma to be born here.

beings who escape the cycle of birth and death do not fall back in because they no longer create possitive or negative karma. their activities whether verbal, physical, or mental are pure. there is also another class of beings who because of their own vows, choose to joyfully participate in the cycle of rebirth. they do not fall subject to karma tho because their activities are pure (beyond concepts of good or bad) these beings may consciously choose their rebirth or whatever way they manifest in the cycle in order help beings still stuck.

i hope that answers your questions. the topic of rebirth, always seems to generate everything from interesting discusion to heated debates, especially in american and european culture (and web boards :D )

be well

ajnata

03-25-2006, 09:47 PM

I think you would enjoy a book. It's by Sylvia Browne and the name is Past Lives - Future Healing. Sylvia is a psychic and past life regression hypnotist. Some of her work is quite amazing. Sylvia also makes another interesting statement: This NOW is HELL! Could be. Sounds right to me!! I'll not argue that with her at all.

As to when we get out - when our Karma is finished a/k/a when we have truly learned what we came to learn. How long does it take. I guess that depends on how fast of a learner you are.

Now, if you want to get interested in something really different, look up walk-ins and figure that one out. How about deja vu being really a parallel reality? Works for me!

hiya Poodle :)

i am familiar with sylvia brown, i do enjoy watching her on montel williams from time to time. i dont really have much affinity with what she says tho because the christian imagery doesnt jive with my karma, but i know a lot of people really like her.

deja vu being a parallel dimension is an interesting concept, and perhaps quite plausible. what are walk ins though??

be well.

skip

03-26-2006, 03:31 PM

ajnata,

Wow thanks.

And I was tempted to go round with you to explain, until it became so complex.

So I think I know how 'souls' get out. I still dont know where we came from. I understand that there are many lower places. But where did the folks in those places come from.

In otherwords I understand the exit point, but I can fathom no entry point.

Is there something out there generating 'souls' and injecting them into the system?

again thanks,

skip

Poodle

03-26-2006, 08:02 PM

A "walk-in" is a spirit that needs to finish karma here on earth. Say, I have a very good body with many, many years left but I know my karma is finished and wish to leave planet earth. I can put a sign on the "cosmic bulleltin board" [40 year old body in very good shape, 53 years remaining - low mileage] for someone to come in and take over my body from the solar plexus chakra on up including the crown chakra to finish out my natural life here on earth. Usually an accident is contrived so the walk-in can enter my body while I am comatose. I am freed from the earth and the walk-in finishes his/her needed karma. Win-Win situation.

Question: If this were to be true why would one what to give up the solar plexus Chakra as that is where the soul/essence resides? There has always got to be a fly in the ointment somewhere, huh?

I was informed that "we" pick our parents. Why would one want to pick a parent in a war torn poverty stricken part of the world so one could starve to death?

Some points upon which to ponder.

ajnata

03-26-2006, 08:23 PM

Hiya Skip :)

yea its very difficult to fathom no entry point. then again, it is equally as difficult for me to grasp an entry point because how is it that something comes from nothing. i just dont know. it does seem to run the mind in circles and doesnt get me anywhere. this is something that i dont have an answer for. i guess if i get enlightened first, ill tell you, and if you wake up first, you tell me. :)

as for how beings got into the lower realms. they did through their karma. maybe they were a human in their life and killed many people than they are reborn in lower realms until their karma is exausted for their acts. we have all lived countless lives in all six realms.

i dont know if there is anything out there projecting beings into existance. to be quite honest, i am not well versed enough in that area of religious philosophy. whether there is or not doesnt seem to help me out a whole lot so it just doesnt come to mind much. even if their was a force or being propelling us into this cyclicle existance than surely that being or force will have a cause of its own. and what is their cause, or the cuase of their cause? lol my heads running in circles just thinking about it :D

be well

skip

03-27-2006, 04:18 PM

ajnata,

Thanks.

You know there is one thing about this karma business that I really like.

Karma reminds me of how the brain seems to interace with the universe. If I am constantly thinking about how to harm others, I get what I focus on. Yes I may harm others as well, but I also reap what I sow. And it doesnt involve some diety making judgements and punishing or rewarding me, I am punishing me or rewarding me.

It fits with my concept of how we create our reality. It is just that my idea has more to do with creating in the here and now not a lifetime or so away.

It also fits with my sense of it being a very simple concept not needing preachers, or moralistic people instructing me to understand, or to tell me my moral compass is off.

The only people who need to worry about karma are the ones who do not want to be put in the shoes of the people they've interacted with over the years.

cheers,

skip

Don

03-27-2006, 11:11 PM

The only people who need to worry about karma are the ones who do not want to be put in the shoes of the people they've interacted with over the years.

Hi, Skip.

Actually, the concept that people should worry about karma is a unique Western misinterpretation of karma. It's based on the concept that karma can be good or bad and that it's a form of punishment (for bad actions) or reward (for good actions). I would contend (and as I understand traditional interpretations of it) that karma neither punishes nor rewards. Karma only does two things: educates and enlightens.

To me, that's simply a blessing!

skip

03-27-2006, 11:14 PM

To Quote my friend Widener: "Them that cant listen have to feel."

Now that may not be the 'traditional' interpretation where you come from but here in East Tennisshoe ...

cheers,

skip

ajnata

03-28-2006, 01:30 PM

i would agree with don that this idea of good and bad karma is a western way of talking about it, altho i myself, coming from a traditional understanding, do use the terms good and bad. karma only means action in the original sanskrit. it reffers to the law of cause and effect, for every action there is a reaction. when i use the terms good or bad or pure im not talking about reward and punishment exactly. generally speaking tho, actions that cause harm to self and other could be labled as bad. actions that are wholesome for self and other are good. and actions that benifit beings but the doer has not attachment to are pure.

skip

i also agree with you about not looking into some distant future. after all we are living life now. karma is not limited to after life tho, it shapes everything about this life. for example, i am interested in hypnosis, that karma has led me here to this board :D we should definetly live in the present not stressing about the next life but we should not waste this prescious human birth either and give no thought to what comes next..

be well

skip

03-28-2006, 04:04 PM

ajnata,

Am well thanks,

And thank you (all) for the discussion, I have learned from this.

warmly,

skip

Poodle

05-06-2006, 12:26 PM

Maybe the ultimate quote should be from Richard Bandler when asked if he believed in past lives. Richard said: "I'm not sure I believe in this one yet." Sort of says it all, don't you think?

MR behavior

05-11-2006, 12:23 PM

In the begining a few days ago when i joined i didn't know what to spect , beacuse i have had a psicoanalist formation , but in my very short time of practice ( about 4 months of practice ) i had more teachings of my mystakes and make me understand that the knoledge that i have was so little in comparison with others ( like you ) Terry , Poodle and Don, thax for sharing your knoledge whit us. And in the other subject the thing im see when i look a Tv show is a guy seeking for two things money or making a name to get status. And they have no limits in the moral and ethic part thats a shame! Quid pro quo.

Steffan_Effenburg

10-11-2006, 10:07 AM

I rather like this quote from Stephen Wolinsky's 'The Nirvana Sutras',

This reminds me of my favourite Nisargadatta Maharaj story. When I was there a French psychiatrist asked a very long-winded question about karma, reincarnation, births, deaths, credits, debits, merits, past lives and future lives, etc. Maharaj asked him, "Who told you that you exist?" After a long silence, Maharaj said, "consciousness tells you that you exist and you beleive it. If you understand this, it is enough.

I used to be steeped in reincarnation and karma. My parents were firm believers in it and consequently it was an integral part of my own belief system.

Having been to countless talks, lectures and met many people within this ‘spiritual’ sphere I started to ask myself the question “of what good is this belief doing them?”
I came out with the double-sided answer. On the ‘good’ side it seems to keeps one’s behaviour in check for fear of karmic repercussions so people do go round pulling the wings off insects and generally butchering each other at random.

On the negative side and particularly with reincarnation it tends sets up a narcissistic narrative of spiritual self-importance in the less wise, ‘I was Beethoven in a previous life, ‘I was Queen Victoria’, ‘I was Francis of Assisi’ etc, etc. I once asked, ‘whom is this ‘I’ you are referring to?’, ‘your body, your personality, your consciousness’? Most people will remark ‘my soul’ in answer to that question, so ‘my’ soul, are you in possession of this soul or is it in possession of you? One thing you can be sure of, these guy’s have an answer to everything and speak with an unnerving certainty regarding the process of karma and reincarnation, as particularly evident in some posts above. If one delves one footstep into the world of quantum physics the word ‘certainty’ quickly goes out the window yet we have these know-it-all’s so certain of the exact workings of the universe and the process of the life force who don’t require the need for existential proof to bolster their words.

I have painstainkingly revised my own deluded perception and instantaneous rationalisation ‘of fate’ or ‘karma’ of everything that happens inn my life to one of the blissfully agnostic awaiting further information. Many so-called ‘spiritual’ people have this idea that the adopting the beliefs of karma and reincarnation automatically transports them to a higher realm of being in the great hierarchy in the sky. ‘Because ‘I’ finally know the workings of the universe and my own soul, according to the teachings this confirms that I am advanced and have lived many lives before compared to those of average man’. This is one particular underlying assumption I have found in some but not all spiritual people.

Don

10-11-2006, 10:48 AM

Hi, Steffan.

I fully agree with you that the concepts of reincarnation and karma, as you have presented them, can cause rationalization and delusion.

I would respectfully suggest, however, that this is due to the Western interpretation of these concepts, a simplification and, in my opinion, a perversion of the original concepts. Concepts of "credits, debits, merits, past lives and future lives" are spiritually important to the thinking of many Westerners who do not understand the ethos of the original concepts.

The statement that "consciousness tells you that you exist and you believe it. If you understand this, it is enough" clearly indicates the true nature of karma and reincarnation, and it does not require concepts of "credits, debits, merits," etc. as these are only of importance to the Western (mis-)interpretation of the concepts.

I have worked with hundreds, perhaps thousands of people doing past life regressions, and contrary to the common belief that you have presented, the vast majority do not experience a past life as someone famous. The few who did generally had lots of other issues, including an overabundance of egotism. In some instances, when one or two of them would brag about a supposed past life, I would remind them of mystic Dion Fortune's statement that a famous past life does not so much add acclaim to this life as it makes one wonder what you did wrong to get to the current state.

I agree that for some people, merely "adopting the [mistaken Westernized] beliefs of karma and reincarnation automatically transports them to a higher realm of being in the great hierarchy in the sky." But then, some people think that stretching the body with yoga, praying daily while facing Mecca, or just sitting once a week on a hard bench in church makes you an advanced, spiritual person. I would suggest that none of this is necessarily true.

Purple Sunset

10-11-2006, 01:49 PM

Maybe the ultimate quote should be from Richard Bandler when asked if he believed in past lives. Richard said: "I'm not sure I believe in this one yet." Sort of says it all, don't you think?

LOL, that's wonderful.

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Connie

02-26-2009, 11:13 AM

I like digging up these old topics---they get new life (wink).

My dad believed: you live until you die. End of story.

My mother believed: that she would end up in some eternity cabin on a lake painting, with my dad fishing and their dog, Sandy, frolicking around. Actually, that wasn't my mother's idea, that was my little sister's idea of an afterlife for my mother. I don't remember what my mother believed in particular--but she did believe in reincarnation.

She took a "past life recall" course one time, and told me several of her lives. She believed, and was congruent in her belief. She said that this was "her good life" to make up for the unhappy ones she had had.

I don't know what I believe. I'm open to ideas and experiences, but nothing has solidified into "belief." I suppose I have been around for awhile. It just feels that way. One psychic friend of mine told me the number of lives I've had--somewhere in the 600+ range, and he said that they were not all on this planet!! That's kind of a fun idea.

I guess I'll find out...eventually.

Poodle

02-26-2009, 02:49 PM

Could be the best part is we rank higher in this Forum than Dr. Tad James. ROFL!!

My honest answer is I don't know. I will pull it out of my bag of tricks when needed. It is not listed on any of my material as any "speciality" of mine. If someone calls and wants it specifically just for "fun", I decline. I've had it done and I sincerely doubt everything I said or was told I said. I've also had soul retrieval and a few other very esoteric things.

I prefer to believe when I die I get to go to Heaven and reside for the remainder of eternity. Sylvia Brown has written an interesting book on it that's full of cool metaphors if you wanted to use them. She also believes that while there we work -- doing exactly the same as we do here. That does not fit with our occupations or hers. What's she gonna do up there? Do we need psychics in Heaven? Do we need NLPers and hypnotherapists in Heaven? I hope not.

PS: I noticed Skip has managed "reintarnation" without dying. Southern statement that may not make sense to the rest of the world.

I'd LOVE to read Don's thoughts on this as he recently completed a workshop doing PLR for about 250 people. Could be that Don knows something in this area that I need to know.

Then we also have Edgar Cayce's writings, the Cherokee's writings Sylvia's and someone else that the world is going to end in perhaps 2012,
If that were to be true, what do I care about now???? :confused: