Nlp Rapport Techniques Are Rubbish and Ineffective [Archive] - HypnosisForum.com and AmPac.edu Community Forums

j0hnny#

06-05-2004, 05:01 PM

Why the big fuss about psuedoscience? IF i understand it NLP was developed on a particular model of mind - model being the operative word (sorry sponge :) ). So it is psuedoscience .......and?????? what..... hypnosis is not perhaps -LOL - yeah right.......:rolleyes: (or perhaps you were just stating what you thought was plain obvious ?/?//?)

Seems NLP is a useful framework of understanding and effective. There is also plenty of philosophical connection with its principles. e.g. 'the map is not the territory' - has plenty of support from philosophical reasoning - for example, it seems to tie in with the notion that 'perceptions are theory laden' ( a largely supported philosophical view point). It also seems to be honest about the postion human beings are in - we have our own perspectives - never a 'God's eye' one where we can check to see if our statements, beliefs etc hook up with reality...

NLP rapport techniques can enhance genuine interest. Surely I can show genuine interest more effectively when I have an understanding of how to present myself - think of wanting to get to know someone better but fearing they won't like you (insecurity) - you may have a genuine interest accompanied with inappropriate behaviour.... understanding how to establish rapport will benefit this person... and genuine interest is allowed to blossom :D - seems you might want to confine rapport to certain contexts????? I might be inclined, therefore, to argue that NLP rapport techniques can help speed up the situation you postualted as ideal - namely a situation where acceptance and empathy exist between individuals.

One other thing, why should your hang-up on the rapport thing make NLP useless..... seems to be very narrow way to draw a conclusion...... in my opinion.

BTW been to one of your shows and it was shyt

(just kiddin) heh,heh,heh

:)

Peter St.Cloud

06-06-2004, 05:47 AM

Hi :D

Now stop for a moment, as you sit there, looking at the screen, reading my message, and imagine for a moment that my topic was menit as constructive criticism. While you imagine that possibility, you might become aware that there is a sense of truth in what say is there not? Naturally, you might now wonder how you could have been so rude to me :0)

I was a hypnotherapist and NLP master practitioner for several years before becoming a stage hypnotist and mentalist (psychological illusionist). What I don’t particular like is people been tricked and wasting money learning some of the more useless NLP skills. If you read my biography on my website you be mad aware that I’ve trained under some of the biggest names is NLP and hypnosis in England. What "solaris152000" calls arrogant is HONESTY.

“unhypnotizablynot” please refrain from hot linking copyrighted images from my website. I giving you the benefit of the doubt, but I do have your ISP number and other details and I will be thinking about you :D Also to reply to your "Yeah, I'm sure Stage Hypnosis is really just so much more valuable a contribution to the world than silly old NLP." Never heard of the saying " laugther is the best medicine".
If you lot where upset my my comment god knows what your make of my next topic "Mentalisn V NLP".

Regards

Stage Hypnotist Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)

Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

skip

06-06-2004, 10:06 AM

Hi Peter,

As a long time practioner, and NLP trainer, I would have to say my experience is not as you state yours is.

Perhaps one of us does these things 'better' than the other, or perhaps our definitions of rapport differ.

I tend to think there is always rapport, because it is a process involving two or more humans. The things you mention are but a few of the techniques used to enhance rapport, and some work more rapidly, and more obviously, than others, but deep rapport is obtained with someone thru a variety of techniques.

You say: "True Rapport is built on empathy acceptance and being generally interested in a person. Not pretending."

That is one way to establish a certain level of rapport, but I believe you are confusing the results of rapport, empathy, and general interest in a person, with rapport itsself. Establishing rapport with someone generates a feeling in them of trust and confidence, and a sense that this person really understands you and your experience. That isnt rapport that's the results of rapport.

As you state this can be done very fast, and it isnt accomplished with just the mirroring techniques you described.

BUT it has nothing to do with genuine interest, or sincerety on your part, it is the product of how you are behaving, the states you are occupying, and how people respond to that behavior.

You further said: "In my opinion NLP is a pseudoscience of little use in the real world."

Well that's an opinion. And instead of pointing out the numerous counter examples, I'll just agree with you, that it will most certainly continue to be true for you, if you continue to choose to believe that way, and that is the way it should be.

I cannot fathom why you would want to handicapp yourself in that way, but it is certainly none of my business.

Others who do choose not to handicap themselves with this belief, would be advised to choose a more useful belief.

I look forward to your continued posts.

skip

solaris152000

06-06-2004, 11:01 AM

So you truly believe that you are truly the best stage hypnotist in britian, and you just felt the urge to point that out to us all. NLP techniques are very effective, If maybe you opened your eyes you would see so. As the saying goes, you cant see the bark because of the tree.

j0hnny#

06-06-2004, 11:19 AM

Look forward to the next thread on Mentalism v NLP - though hope you will go into more detail and discuss the matter with depth and clarity, as you may have noticed the amibguity in your post failed to give your true intention....

Regards
j#

Don

06-06-2004, 01:33 PM

I agree very strongly with Johnny and Skip.

I would contend that NLP is a useful MODEL. It is not a science in iteself. As a model, it can help you understand the way people function.

A person's ability to work within that model varies from person to person. Freud gave up on hypnosis because he was a lousy hypnotist. That doesn't make hypnosis bad, it makes his ability to function within the hypnotherapeutic paradigm bad.

Sponge makes an interesting post, stating that you could not scientifically verify NLP unless you tested it millions of times under scientific conditions. Firstly, science rarely does anything like that. Rather they use accelerated testing. In this case, one person doing millions of tests is equalled by thousands of people doing hundereds of tests and finding it useful.

The "scientific conditions" requirement is far more difficult to meet, and "soft sciences" use quantity and repetition rather than scientific conditions. After all, we're not going to keep millions of people in Skinnerian Boxes, isolating them from any and all outside influences, just to see if NLP actually works.

Terry

06-06-2004, 09:14 PM

I think I know were Peter is coming from, but coming on Gangbusters in one's first post does seem rather off putting my friend, at least wait until you get to know the audience better......Now you are correct, Peter St Cloud is indeed a much better stage name that Peter Smith, or whatever name you were born with, and must give you some credence onstage.....
As for being the best, I have never seen you perform, and even if I had, I haven't seen what every other stage performer can do, so I would be unable to offer even an opinion, never mind a definitive statement as to you being the best in the UK. Tell you what, if you agree the I am the best hypno therapist in Canada, I will support your statement also (EG) Terry

Peter St.Cloud

06-07-2004, 09:46 AM

Hi Terry :D

First I need to make clear that “Peter Saint Cloud” is my Real name also my full title is Lord Peter Saint Cloud my late father was of French aristocratic decent. So consider yourselves honoured by my presents. You can rise up from your knees now. :D Aso I can back up my credentials and qualifications can you?

A few years ago Dr. Heap, Principal Clinical Psychologist for Sheffield Health Authority and lecturer at Sheffield University, did a very careful and thorough study of all the research that has been done into certain claims of NLP, citing 70 papers in all.

Specifically he was looking into the idea of the Primary Representational System (PRS), which is supposed by NLP to be a very important concept. It is claimed that people tend to think in a specific mode: visual, auditory, kinaesthetic, olfactory or gustatory, of which the first three are the most common. NLP claims that it is possible to determine the PRS of a person by noticing certain words that she or he uses which will reveal the mode. It is also claimed that the direction of eye movement is an indicator of the PRS.

The reason why it is said to be important for the therapist to determine the PRS of a client is that it is supposed greatly to enhance rapport if one then matches the clients PRS.

These three assertions are capable of being put to controlled tests to determine how far they are true. Dr. Heap, who is also Secretary of the British Society of Experimental and Clinical Hypnosis, ploughed through the literature to summarise the results of many workers and found the following.

Although the results have been mixed, the hypothesis that a person has a PRS, which is observed in the choice of words, has been found not to hold by the great majority of researchers. The hypothesis that a person has a PRS, which can be determined by the direction of eye movements found, even less support.

The third hypothesis, which was looked at, is the practical one of whether or not we can improve our relationship with a client by matching the presumed PRS. Again the answer is a resounding NO. There is no evidence that focusing on the presumed modality adds anything to the widely recognised finding that matching general characteristics of verbal and nonverbal communication may facilitate rapport. It is interesting that one researcher, Cody, found that therapists matching their clients' language were rated as less trustworthy and less effective!

I’m aware that what I say may come across as being arrogant but as I’ve already said in an earlier post I just been honest about some of its techniques. I have no personal axe to grind over NLP.

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Terry

06-07-2004, 10:24 AM

Since I didn't get down on my knees, I have no need to get up as you suggest, and as for having any proof of anything, I see no need of such. However, for your satisfaction, I am related to French aristocacy myself, but am not too proud of it, since they ****ed up badly, and due to that same arrogance you display, gave rise to the French revolution.....I have no idea were a "Baroness" stands in relation to a Lord, and didn't know that they had the title "lord" in France, (comes of being unimpressed with titles I suppose.) I am a little more satisfied with being related to various writers, who at least display characteristics I admire, such as a vivid imagination, and the ability to communicate well. These stood me in good stead when in practice as a hypnotist, which I did for twenty one years before retiring. As for NLP, I used that which came naturally to me, and have never studied same. Non the less, I accept the fact that those who have studied it claim that it is helpful to them and their clients, and see no need to question friends I have accepted as decent and honest people.
You on the other hand, are an unknown quantity, and must forgive me if I withold acceptance of you as a valid contributor to my knowledge base, until such time as I get to know you better. If you feel afronted by this doubt, you are of course free to strike my off your aquaintance list, I am sure you will feel no loss, and for myself, I have so many friends, I am sure I will get along quite well regardless of your decission. Oh yes, your comment about me feeling awed by your "presents", I'm sure you made a genuine mistake there or perhaps a wrong key stroke, but it should have be "presence" I believe, (EG) Terry

Don

06-07-2004, 10:33 AM

Peter, have you ever studied music?

Those of us who have know that when it comes to Bach's fugues--in fact, the fugue in general--follows a set of rules. For example, a melody starts in one key and then moves up to another key after the basic melody ends.

Many years ago a group of students programmed all of this information into a computer. Then then asked the computer to produce a fugue based on all of the rules. It did, but it sounded absolutely terrible. No matter what they did to "tweak" the program, they couldn't get it to work.

Then they went and looked at Bach's fugues in detail. Every one of them broke the rules. The rules were real, but excellence was produced when the rules formed a background and not a set of laws that could not be broken.

From your description of Dr. Heap's analysis of other people's work, it sounds as if he has fallen victim to the belief that when it comes to the mind, if X then Y. Unfortunately, in my experience it simply doesn't work that way. Can listening to a person's choice of words indicate the primary representation system. Yes it can...BUT it is only an indication, not some rule laid down in stone.

Observation is an important skill. If a person SEEMS to be communicating using one representation system, but attempting to use that system to communicate doesn't work, you have to change your interpretation.

It sounds to me as if Dr. Heap looked at the rules of language and saw that "C" is a hard sound as in "cat," and then wonders why people don't understand him when he asks for 79 "kents" in change for a purchase of "kokolates."

I would agree with Dr. Heap if I started AND ended an interpretation of a person's representation system with a simplistic test.

I don't.

solaris152000

06-07-2004, 12:12 PM

Lord peter I cannot belive that you can be proud of being related to the french aristockrocy, they were rich b****rds who caused the starving of thousands. Another thing I hate (me being british) are lords. The fact that I am supposed to address you as if you are supperior really angers me. You think you are better than me because you were born to a certain fammily.

You just came into this community NLP.com and tottally dismissed our knowledge as rubbish. Just look at how arrogant you appear, putting "simply the best" as your signiture. Maybe you are but at least have the decentcy not to rubb it in every1's face!!! Okay, because NOBODY CARES!!!

Im sorry I will not flame anymore. But I just needed to give my opinion to an actual lord because I have hated them (and the monachary) for sooooo long.
My further posts will be strictly NLP based, but I really wanted you to see what the majority feel about people like you.

solaris152000

06-07-2004, 12:19 PM

First of all I want to apologize for bouble posting, this post is about NLP.

Peter,
NLP is only a model for using as Don said there are no strict rules that must be followed, they need to be adapted to the subject. Since everyone is different you need to use different methods everytime. But you still use the GUIDELINES that NLP provides.Mirroring is a fantastic tool for gaining rapport, but you cant adopt the same things everytime. because people use different body launge. If you still remain un-convinced then research NLP techniques and try them out. I do and they work all the time; you must adopt to the individual.

skip

06-07-2004, 01:03 PM

The gallic phallic.

cheers,

skip

Don

06-07-2004, 07:48 PM

How can you not love Screaming Lord Such?

Robert

06-09-2004, 05:48 PM

Hi Peter,

I thought it was very interesting that in your second post on the topic of how NLP pacing and leading techniques are rubbish you said,

"
"Now stop for a moment, as you sit there, looking at the screen, reading my message, and imagine for a moment that my topic was menit as constructive criticism. While you imagine that possibility, you might become aware that there is a sense of truth in what say is there not? Naturally, you might now wonder how you could have been so rude to me :0) "

Now, the reason I find this interesting is that this is an NLP pattern for developing rapport, as you most likely well know, which is called verbal pacing and leading.

I find your statement to be rather incongruent, and I would like further clarification, if you would please.

AS far as Primary representational system goes, none of the original NLP developers talk anymore about people being visual, auditory, or kinesthetic across contexts. Rather that at a given moment in time, a person is predominantly utilizing a sensory channel.

If you are stating that there are no visual, auditory, or kinesthetics...I fully agree with you....as Tony Robbins puts it.."we are all VAK's".

I also agree that dale carnegie type techniques are equally important as NLP rapport techniques for maintaining good relations with people. The two together are incredibly effective.

Congruence, and caring are two concepts that are not often emphasized enough in NLP.

Rapport instantly creates the illusion of a deep bond. It takes more than rapport to maintain relationship over time. It is a great "lubricant" to communition in the moment.

Also, rapport techniques utilized clumsily, or awkwardly, or without sensory acuity can easily lead to breaking rapport. For instance, mimicking someone to an extreme.

There is also a sort of psychic connection that happens with rapport where you can get very good at picking up someones thoughts / and projecting thoughts to someone you are in deep rapport with. If you a person is insincere, or worse has negative intentions toward the person they are getting into deep rapport with when they get into deep rapport, those things will be much more obvious than if the pacing & leading was not done in the first place.

I'd be very interested in your thoughts on these things I have typed here.

Thanks,

Robert

Dita

06-09-2004, 09:42 PM

I hope this request is not intrusive or misplaced.
I am new to this type of communictions (threads and fourms online). To me, it does seem reasonably managable for discussion.
I have gone to the website NLPinfo.com and read what they say there. I've memorized the little chart thing with eye movement and i vaguly recall when some research came out on that 'theory'. Now I'm reading this thread about pacing, leading and rapport building. Where do I go to learn the basics of this NLP lable? Which book should I start with? The concepts seem very familiar to me already. I just never knew that these types of behavioral. . . . indications and techniques were classified as a group (NLP).
I do appreciate your help. And no need to clutter up the "thread". If someone will direct me, they can do so via the PM or the email avenue.
Once again,thank you.
Dita

skip

06-10-2004, 08:44 AM

Dita,

There are many placs to start.

In addition to looking n the internet, which I assume you will continue to do....

There are two books:

"NLP The New Technology of Achievement" by Andreas and Faulkner

"The Magic of NLP Demystified" by Lewis and Pucelik

hope that helps,

skip

Peter St.Cloud

06-10-2004, 10:05 AM

Hi Dita:)

My advice to you would be to ignore NLP book, course and tapes as they tend to be full of incomprehensible new age terminology and homespun philosophy based on new age transformational therapists who NLP practitioners claim produced amazing results with their clients, but as usually with NLP claims their no scientific evidence to support it. Theres also the issure of cost of NLP coruse books and tapes.

Three books that come to mind is “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie People – People Watching: How to Take Control
Vernon Coleman - Body Language: How to read others' thoughts by their gestures by Allan Pease. These book are cheap and psychobabble FREE.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Terry

06-10-2004, 10:37 AM

[QUOTE=Peter St.Cloud]Hi Dita:)

My advice to you would be to ignore NLP book, course and tapes as they tend to be full of incomprehensible new age terminology and homespun philosophy based on new age transformational therapists who NLP practitioners claim produced amazing results with their clients, but as usually with NLP claims their no scientific evidence to support it. Theres also the issure of cost of NLP coruse books and tapes.

Three books that come to mind is “How to Win Friends and Influence People” by Dale Carnegie People – People Watching: How to Take Control
Vernon Coleman - Body Language: How to read others' thoughts by their gestures by Allan Pease.

Dita, it depends on what you want from the time you will spend on reading?
It would be my suggestion, that you start a new thread, since this one seems to be getting clogged up by silly banter, and insults which have no basis in fact, but are merely opinions. Terry

Unregistered

06-11-2004, 04:59 AM

Hi there Mr Saint Cloud

Living in the UK and never having heard of you, the greatest magician in this country, I tried to track you down.
And I succeeded.

In that great publication of our times, with a massive national ciculation, The Kenilworth Weekly news, I found an article on your truly amazing skills.
Below is a quote from you.

Mr Saint Cloud said: "It has nothing to do with the occult or magic .....................

"It uses language patterns, the sound of the voice and the power of suggestion. A way to think about it is the instruction Do Not Think of the Colour Blue. You have to in order to understand the sentence. Advertisers use similar influences with negative phrases such as You Don't Have to Decide Now, which create a strong compulsion to do so. "
Mr Saint Cloud's "ladies only" show will be at 7pm and costs £#9.
20 January 2004

Try reading any NLP book you like, you could take the same phrases out of it almost verbatim.

And indeed why spend a lot of money on an NLP book when you can attend the ladies show for just £9.

Dear Peter, NLP is a great tool and can be used by anybody. But like any tool, it is only as good as the user.
You have come to this forem and effectively challenged people regarding the efficacy of NLP. That is fine for those people who have studied it and have an informed opinion. However, when someone comes along who is just curious and wishes to learn something new, it is unbalanced and uneccesary to just try to influence them to not even bother.
Your credentials do not stand up to your claims. You may not have the ability to use NLP or to even understand it. Your sweeping generalisations clearly show your ignorance.

However, you must indeed be the greatest magician in the country because you have achieved that incredible feat and ensured that no one else has actually heard of you.
Eat your heart out Harry Potter!!!!!

Peter St.Cloud

06-11-2004, 05:41 AM

Well Unregistered I'm geussing from your post your not one of my many fans:D

The fact you choose to remain anonymous speaks volumes about your personality, to much of a coward to register your name. One of the big problems with NLP is how its members take credit for techniques that have been around for in some cases years. Hypnosis does uses language patterns, the sound of the voice and the power of suggestion, but the techniques I use are not from NLP period. These days anyone displaying incredible mental feats are automatically assumed to be some kind of NLP expert or devote. I would be lying if I said I was not one of England former experts on NLP, so thatÕs why you should take what I say with a bit of seriousness. Instead of placing lame attempts at cheap put downs, consider what I'm saying think it through thats all I ask.

Regards

Stage Hypnotist Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)

Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Peter St.Cloud

06-11-2004, 05:49 AM

starfish

06-11-2004, 06:17 AM

Good day Peter

There is a part of NLP called mind reading and you appear to be quite good at it.
Your attempt to insult me by saying I chose to remain anonymous etc etc was pretty crass. I was unregistered simply because I forgot my password and I have just got a new one from the administrators. One of the things that I have learned from the study of NLP is not to mind read a situation.
And here is another part of NLP, complex equivalence. You chose to equate me being un registered as being a coward.
Now you have learned two new and very simple things about NLP, and yet you claim to be one of Englands former experts in NLP. (I am assuming you mean foremost, or are you talking from beyond the grave?) Is this in the same way as you are the Best Stage Hypnotist in the UK? Did the Kenilworth weekly news give you that accolade also?
I could go on and on about what NLP is or isn't. But you appear to be too much of an expert already. And those others here who are definitely expert could do a better job than I am.

Enjoy your ladies night Lord Peter, somebody somewhere will believe in you one day!

solaris152000

06-11-2004, 07:31 AM

Wooo you got dissed!!!!

Fantastic explanation there. From the quote I just read, you reguallary use NLP techniques anyway?????

Don

06-11-2004, 08:42 AM

One of the big problems with NLP is how its members take credit for techniques that have been around for in some cases years.

Respectfully, this is a total non-argument. I have never seen any NLP members take credit for techniques that have been around previously, In fact, I have seen scrupulous documentation as to sources. The founders clearly admit that many of the techniques and sources come from people such as Erickson, Bateson, and Satir.

So I would contend that your argument--along with your misdefinition of words such as "psychobabbel"--indicates your inaccuracies more than anything.

This leads me to wonder: You come here to attack people's beliefs (while providing nothing to replace such beliefs) and your attack is riddled with errors. In my mind you have an unspoken agenda. In fact, as the (as far as we can tell self-proclaimed "Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004," you seem to have a great deal of time on your hands to come here.

So what happened? Why are you so upset with NLP? What, Mr. St. Cloud, is your real motive for spending so much time being here? (And before you play the "I'll dodge the question by turning it around" game, I was offered the opportunity to be a moderator here and voluntarily took the obligation to spend time here.)

Psychologically, people tend to prefer to be with people they like and have common interests. If a person is primarily interested in world cup football, they usually don't hang around with goths primarily interested in talking about vampire novels and listening to old Depeche Mode CDs. So if you are so upset with NLP, you must have an inner motivation and agenda to spend so much time with people you detest, people who you have falsely accused of not giving their sources.

So why are you here?

Peter St.Cloud

06-11-2004, 10:11 AM

Don if you don’t edit my post then individual contributing to this topic would get and understanding as to why I’m here. I bring to forums like these experiences and enjoy a good debate with my peers. I’m also open minded but not that open minded to except any old dribble present to me without some kind of evidence to support it. Reading topics and replies you have post on this forum Don I’m surprised you’re not in my corner on this one. Also before you claim the post you edited contained extraneous personal attack towards starfish, please have the decently to allow members to make there own mind up on that. I can understand the remove of fowl language but I don’t use such terms. Adding Reason: extraneous personal attack makes it appears that I have. Will you confirm that that was not the case?

Also would people please refrain from using the title Mr. When addressing me, the correct title is Lord:D

Also Don how do I go about applying to be a moderator on this forum?

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

solaris152000

06-11-2004, 02:52 PM

If you become moderator I will leave.

Hawkes

06-11-2004, 03:07 PM

Somehow i don't think you'll have to do that solaris.

Don

06-11-2004, 11:20 PM

The only edits are your personal insults. I have not removed your content. Debate, contrary to your claim, is about exchange of ideas, not denunciation and insult. Coming here and denouncing people and concepts is not debate.

Sorry you don't like the elimination of insults. Others have not liked it either. The simple answer: make comments about concepts and not about people. It is actually very easy to disagree without being disagreeable.

The personal insult you made and that I removed was extraneous to what you were posting. You may not think so, but objectively, that is the case.

I have no idea why you would want to become a moderator since you have made clear you completely disagree with NLP and have denounced the people who are practitioners.

By the way, are you any relation to Screaming Lord Such?

Peter St.Cloud

06-12-2004, 03:50 AM

Perhaps Don IÕm viewing another forum than you, as the only insults are those aimed at me, you last post proves my point Don. ... Also I feel that IÕm been unfairly treated. What displayed on this topic is typical of the attitude many but not all so-called NLP devotes possesses, individuals who claim they are masters of gaining rapport, yet seem only to have the capacity for rudness. If some of you are not carefull you will force me to remove my belt and by thunder my trousers will fall down:eek: [/color]

Regards

Stage Hypnotist Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)

Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Don

06-12-2004, 12:04 PM

Insults toward others by you have been deleted. Insults by others toward you have been deleted.

RussWilde

06-16-2004, 02:23 PM

This is amazing, some guy with no history comes in and starts throwing his attitude around without proper justicfication, starts quoting other websites to backup his story without much in the way of an udnerstanding of the facts he's using.

Everyine who's invested a lot of money time and / or effort in studying NLP leap to its defence then everything reduces to a practical rabble.

mr cloud posts his geocities website and claims to be "Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances"..

"If you're the best how come I've never heard of you, but I've heard of Paul McKenna?"

Also, possibly the reason you were unable to acheive rapport, if your confrontational style of writing and phrasing is anything to go by, may be because you communicate on the level of a child. Seriousley;
Some of your comments appear to have proper structure, but a little reading proves that most of these are completely pledgerised.

I will admit I love this part of your website though;
"Is it also true that there are some people who just cannot be hypnotized? -Yes, dead people are impossible. Seriously, everyone of normal intellect who is prepared to relax, use his or her imagination, and following along with suggestion can be hypnotized. The exceptions are those who are educationally subnormal, mental cases, very young children and individuals pissed as a newt or high on drugs."
--Peter Saint Cloud 2004

Subtle as a well-aimed half-brick. Really. Do you make those claims in your shows as well. God, your "volunteers" must love you.

Also you do Stage Hynotherapy, did I get that right??
Wow, is that like Mass-Group-Therapy? Jeez. I'll bet your number of return bookings are less than 33% right? Returners are mostly venues, not clients specifically.

And you mix "Mental Magic" with your hyp show??
Do you sustain ANY credibility as a professional at all?? Besides the outlandish claims on your website I mean?

-- Sorry I got carried away.
Mods please feel free to edit / delete as necessary.

starfish

06-17-2004, 01:19 AM

Hi There Peter

As your post to me was edited, and you were kind enough to e.mail me the insult directly so that I would not miss out, perhaps I can help you get some more understanding.

Several months back this forum had a member who called himself / herself DRNURSE:mad: , or on occasion DRSNURSE:mad: and various minor variations on this theme. His entire time on this forum was spent delivering personal insults. Whilst I have questioned your background and credentials, you appear to have much more to contribute here than he did. Just look at the number of hits and replies your original post generated. I would guess that most of us are enjoying this thread so you have undoubtedly added to this forum. Keep it up.
That said, personal insults are out, however minor. Yours was very mild and I took no real umbrage at it. My personal attack on you was on your claims not on you as an individual.

I would be surprised if you were to become a moderator, but I do hope you keep posting and that you keep provoking.

ps Where is your next stage show, I may just turn up and volunteer!!:eek:

solaris152000

06-17-2004, 06:57 AM

sorry for double posting guys but Ive just noticed the picture on peter st. clouds website show him standing on someone while there back is unsupported an there head and feet are on chairs. In the books I have read they have all said that this was a dangerous trick and can cause serious back proplems. They aso advised that this was very unprofessional and people should no better.

Please explain....

Lillelord

06-18-2004, 04:43 AM

Hi Peter!

I think it's interesting to compare your post of Dr. Heap's work with this http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~dylanwad/morganic/art_nlp.htm by Dylan Morgan. Don't you think Dylan Morgan would appreciate it if you gave him the credits for things he actually wrote? Well, let's assume you just forgot.

Now, have you actually read his work? The reason I ask is because I'm curious to know if they used certified practitioners in this work, or if it's just the case of some phsychologists/students who tried some of the techniques described in NLP books and elsewhere. To me, this would be the same as me looking at drawings and maybe read an introductory book about drawing, and expect to paint like an artist. I think we all know it takes a bit more practice than this, both painting and mastering NLP techniques.

In my opinion, the techniques discussed early on in this tread are just some of the techniques of gaining rapport and influencing people. However, to be really effective with the tools NLP provide I think you have to combine several techniques, each one getting you one step at a time to the place where you want to go.

In my Alternative Dispute Resolution class we learned a language pattern we called paraphrasing, which is generally to repeat what ever the subjects says. I guess this could be called matching, but in my opinion it's not very effective. Dylan Morgan writes: "It is interesting that one researcher, Cody, found that therapists matching their clients' language were rated as less trustworthy and less effective!" If Cody's concept of "matching" is the same as what we learned as paraphrasing, I'm not surprised of his findings. However, there is a difference between using the clients identical words and using phrases in the same representational system. For instance, if someone says "Everything seems so dark nowadays" you could respond "I understand things can seem dark", but in my opinion a better way of matching your client would be to say something like "Yes, I can imagine that".

I also find that there are other ways of utilizing PRS than just gaining rapport. For example, as a hypnotist, I am sure that you're aware of the possibility to induce a trance by leading the subject into a different representational system than his primary (especially the one he uses the least).

Now, just out of curiosity, who named you "Best UK Stage Hypnotist of 2004"? I'm not saying that you haven't been named best stage hypnotist, I'm just wondering...

Lillelord

Peter St.Cloud

06-18-2004, 08:35 AM

Well....

This topic was originally about the practically of NLP rapport techniques in a real life scenario. Instead of addressing the arguments that has been made, certain individuals using this forum have decided to verbally attack me, I guess in order to dodge the issue.

Terry in his reply summed it up when he wrote, “this one seems to be getting clogged up by silly banter, and insults”.

There’s also the additional problem of Don editing and in sum cases removing my replies, due to this I feel I'm unable to reply to any of your questions.

It’s quite obvious that I have won this debate so consider the topic now closed.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Don

06-18-2004, 11:03 AM

No information that is supported has ever been edited or deleted. No posts have ever been deleted simply because any of the moderators disagree with the content.

Insults and personal attacks are removed.

People who wish to present information and ideas are welcome and encouraged to make posts. Those who cannot share information without insult and personal attacks may find other websites more amenable to such tactics.

Sponge

06-18-2004, 02:01 PM

"There’s also the additional problem of Don editing and in sum cases removing my replies, due to this I feel I'm unable to reply to any of your questions.

It’s quite obvious that I have won this debate so consider the topic now closed."

how have you won the debate by having your posts edited???:mad: :confused:
anyone can write insults and have them deleted, that doesnt mean you have won the debate.
To win the debate you need us to agree on your point of argument.
or dont you need one being "simple the best".
(insert flame here)

Peter St.Cloud

06-19-2004, 05:25 AM

Don I disagree

No posts have ever been deleted simply because any of the moderators disagree with the content.
This statement is incorrect, you removed a post of mine due to the fact you disagreed to the content. He is a resent message you sent me, in response to me revealing a standed trick used by NLP instructers.

Greetings.

Twice, now, you have posted the same wide-ranging attacks on NLP instructors. You have denounced them without giving any evidence to support your claims. Therefore, they have been deleted.

If you want to report on experiences you've had with specific trainers, and want to comment on those experiences, please do so.

But to say a "trick used" by "many" NLP trainers without defining what you mean by "many" nor giving any evidence of how many you've actually personally experienced is simply smearing people.

There are many places on the internet, such as the usenet, where you can do this. You can do this on your own website if you so desire. But we do not allow such tactics here.

Thank you,

Don
Moderator

I have won this debate due to the fact no one has provided any evidence that my arguments are incorrect.

This topic is NOW closed

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

solaris152000

06-19-2004, 07:14 AM

I believ Don is a NLP practioner and what he says about NLP makes perfect sense, I don't belive he is just posting babble, infact everyone on this forum have provided me with great information on NLP, without just saying babble I understand them completely... so you are right this thread is now over as you have quite obviously lost the argument.

Peter St.Cloud

06-19-2004, 07:42 AM

:D solaris152000 you rascal

I believ Don is a NLP practioner and what he says about NLP makes perfect sense, I don't belive he is just posting babble, infact everyone on this forum have provided me with great information on NLP, without just saying babble I understand them completely... so you are right this thread is now over as you have quite obviously lost the argument.
I believe Don is an author of fairytale literature and not a NLP practitioner. Althought I believe he has read a few books on the subject of NLP.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

solaris152000

06-19-2004, 10:00 AM

What about the other people? Why do you have your text in a awkard size and font. Do you want to be noticed more? And your signiture confirmsd this theory, I would say you obviously have a problem with NLP and are trying to attract a lot of attention to your whining..... just a breif psychological review.

Don

06-19-2004, 10:05 AM

Peter, as I said in the private mail to you which you have now posted above, the reason your post was deleted was NOT due to the content or ideas therein. To say make that claim is a misrepresention. I'm not editing or deleting your post above simply so people can see how you have misrepresented what I privately mailed to you. The reason your duplicate posts were deleted was because you were simply smearing people--you were insulting people whom you gave absolutely no indication you even knew.

I privately emailed you to explain exactly why your sliming of an entire group of people was deleted. I specifically indicated the attack techniques you used because some people are so used to gross attacks of others on the internet that they don't understand that such are even attacks. The fact is, your broad attacks in that post could have resulted in lawsuits against us for leaving it up--something that would ruin this forum for everyone--as well as lawsuits against you.

If you wish to post here without smears, insults, unproven attacks, etc., you are welcome. If you feel that you cannot do so, then your posts will be edited or deleted.

As I also made clear in the private email to you which you posted above, if you want to share your ideas in a way that is not a gross attack on groups of people, it would have remained.

Since you already have a website, I would respectfully suggest that you set up forums on your site. You will be able to post anything you want there. If it smears, attacks, and insults individuals or groups of people, that is up to you.

Nobody has the "right" to post smears and unwarrented attacks on this forum. Everyone, including myself, uses these forums as a privilege. We hope all people enjoy this privilege. We invite all positions and ideas which do not insult and attack individuals and groups.

Peter, you have won nothing. Well, that's not true. Your attacks and smears have won you a step toward losing your privilege of being able to post here.

Terry

06-19-2004, 10:57 AM

The Kenilworth News you say? THE KENILWORTH NEWS? Well I never, I used to visit there when I was a young man, just after I left the navy. Lovely little country community it is too...... Much more scenic that Brum were I come from (G)....Terry

Peter St.Cloud

06-20-2004, 06:55 AM

:D Look what I’ve just reeled in,

As I’ve already said in a reply this topic was originally about the practicality of NLP rapport techniques. Instead of addressing the arguments that has been made, certain individuals using this forum have decided to post replies attacking my character and claiming I have an axe to grind with NLP. I guess it easier to make claims like this than to answer the initial uncomfortable question rose.

I disagree with Don’s claim that my posts especially the one he’s referring to smear, attack and insult individuals or groups of people. Anyone with an ounce of intelligence reading my topics and replies will note that my replies are honest, informative and educational. I take full responsibly for what I write and am prepare do admit when I’m wrong. I do accept that certain individual on this forum may be threaten by my presence, due to my reputation as one of England’s foremost experts in both NLP and hypnosis. I also accept that my posts and replies can appear confrontational in style to some individuals.

I have won this debate due to the fact no one has provided any evidence that my arguments are incorrect.

Final remarks This topic is NOW closed.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

Don

06-20-2004, 12:19 PM

I realize that you do believe that, just as you have no conception that for over a decade, the publication of PRIVATE messages without authorization has been considered an internet taboo and a breach of "netiquette." I also realize that you seem incapable of understanding that accusing "NLP trainers," as opposed to the one or two or dozen or whatever you have experienced (and refused to reply as to how many you've actually participated with) out of the thousands of trainers out there of doing certain nasty "tricks" is a smear and unwarranted attack against all of those people you not only have never participated with, but have never even heard of. Your smear is so broad that if you had changed the term "NLP trainers" to "Jews" or "Blacks" you would have been call a racist or antisemite. But I realize that you don't seem to understand this.

I also realize that you don't seem to understand that if you stand alone in the middle of a forrest and shout, "I am the greatest chess player in the world," and nobody responds to you, that does not make you the greatest chess player in the world.

But mostly, what seems clear, is that you don't seem to understand that this forum is about discussion and sharing of ideas. It's not about turning people into winners and losers. I have seen excellent posts from wonderful people here, some of which I disagree with. That doesn't make either side winners or losers, it makes both sides creative, dedicated thinkers.

So far, you're the only one who seems to be thinking in terms of "I've gotta win at this." That sounds like the comment of a six-year-old playing a game. The people who post here, even the younger ones, are far more adult than that.

As to your "Final remarks This topic is NOW closed" comment--that sounds very much like the above six year old saying "if you don't want to follow my rules I'm taking my ball and going home."

The rules here are no smearing and warrentless attacking of others. As long as this is followed, all people are invited to play. Sorry, you don't have the ball here. If others want to post they are welcome to do so. This topic remains open.

You have a web site, and if you want to smear and attack others--and face possible legal action as a result--you can do so there.

solaris152000

06-21-2004, 01:15 AM

I agree how can you assume that all NLP trainers are lier's and cheats, I belive don has made a valid point and until you are a mod peter you can't close a thread. Is anyone here an NLP trainer so you can just prove to Peter that all NLPers are not just fluent in "psycobabble"

skip

06-21-2004, 07:21 AM

Solaris,

I am an NLP trainer, and I use both NLP and hypnosis in my practice and my life.

Is Peter telling the truth or is he lying?

Peter is telling just enough of the truth to sound credible, his conclusions are rubbish.

NLP started out as a method of duplicating excellence. Essentially it was, find someone who was excellent at some skill, and learn, systematically, how to duplicate that excellence.

So when Peter says NLP didnt invent anything, they are just copying this person or that person, he is correct. In so far as he goes.

Many of the theraputic techniques NLP uses were derived from a few therapasts. Erickson, Pearls, Satir, to name a few. And yes this thing comes from Erickson, that from Satir, and this other Pearls, and so on.

So the "Theraputic Model" codified by NLP isnt something NLP invented, it is the 'excellence' that the people studied, were able to do, and NLP described how to duplicate that excellence, so others could do it. In most cases the people studied couldnt teach what they did, because they were not consciously aware of how they did it.

NLP techniques can be applied to learn to duplicate any form of excellence.

If you wanted to be excellent at speaking, then you would use NLP techniques to derive the essence of excellent speaking. Would the individual techniques be copies? Certainly! Some from Plato, some from Aristotle, some from Churchill, some from Regan, some from Clinton, and so on.

If you wanted to be excellent at seduction, you would study excellent seducers, and duplicate what works best for them.

Any skill you want to learn, is able to be duplicated and duplicated fast when you use NLP techniques to learn it.

But see Solaris, NLP isnt the seduction, or the speaking, or the therapy, it is the method used to learn to duplicate the excellence in those "fields".

So when Peter says NLP doesnt work, he is either revealing his own ignorance of what NLP actually is, or his lack of ability to personally use NLP effectively.

I dont know which, and I really dont care which, do you?

I hope that clarifies a bit for you.

BTW Peter's application, for moderator, has been recieved, replied to, and filed appropriately.

cheers,

skip

Merlin

06-21-2004, 09:02 PM

I occasionally do NLP trainings.

Beyond that comment, I refer you to Skip's answer.

Peter St.Cloud

06-22-2004, 03:40 AM

Hi Readers:D

Skips says in his reply that NLP started out as a method of duplicating excellence, this is the claim NLP makes that if any human being can do anything, so can you, this sounds very plausible. Its is true that anyone can learn a skill like playing a piano or riding a bike but not true that everyone will become a famous international pianist or get a gold medal in the Olympics. Claiming that simply mimicking the style and language patterns of successful individuals will allow you to duplicate their success is twisted logic. I think most of us instinctively understand that even if we were subjected to the same experiences which therapists Erickson or Satir had, we would not have become either. Analysing Erickson or Satir mannerisms and style might produce a hundred "models" of how those minds worked. There is no way to know which, if any, of the models is correct. It is unknown why NLP practitioners would suppose that any given model would imply techniques for quick and effective change in thoughts, actions and beliefs.

It’s interesting to note that Dr. Milton Erickson and Virginia Satir abilities as good communicators were probably due to their physical disabilities.

It’s silly for me to suggest there are not things that can be learnt from the study of successful people. But it also equally ridiculous for skip to suggest that someone who impersonates say Elvis by mimicking his voice and mannerisms will become The King.

Nearly forgot don what are you rambling on about, I get the sense your angry about me for exposing you as a fibbing scamp. I did place a post in this forum but it wasn't written the way you portray. I play by the rules as long as everyone else is playing by the same ones. I'm serious thinking about removing you from my Christmas card list Don.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004
Moderator in training:D

solaris152000

06-22-2004, 05:45 AM

Don removed the post as you posted offence material, just like he edited mine when I critisized your Web site. But seriouly the photo on the front of your page shows you standing on someone while they are supported by there head and feet. Did you know this causes serious damge?!! You seem to be avoiding this subject so don't avoid the question this time.

If you completely mimicked elvis it would not make you famous but you would be just as good as him, if 1 human being can do something then anyone can NLP uses positive re-inforcement and stuff like that. If you use techniques such as mirroring and pacing to gain rapport you will find it a lot easier to persuad them of something and you will gain a better understanding of them. Try using NLP techniques and then say wever or not they work... okay?

Peter St.Cloud

06-22-2004, 10:05 AM

Solaris you rascal:D

Don't tell me that you believe that if someone learned to impersonate Gary Kasparov speech and mannerisms that person would become a chess grandmaster and be able to beat him. if this was so Jon Culsaw off Dead Ringers would be a mental genius of unparallel proportions.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004
Moderator in training :)

solaris152000

06-22-2004, 10:07 AM

No-one said anything of the sort???

Don

06-22-2004, 10:28 AM

Peter, I "sort of" agree with your comment, "Claiming that simply mimicking the style and language patterns of successful individuals will allow you to duplicate their success is twisted logic." Success depends upon several things, including skill and talent, but also timing and luck.

I also agree that it is ridiculous "Éto suggest that someone who impersonates say Elvis by mimicking his voice and mannerisms will become The King." However, it is no secret that if you do exactly what others do--including their behaviors--you can become as good or better than they. That doesn't mean you will achieve the same level of recognition or success. My guess is that there could be many people who could reach a level of chess grandmaster but don't have the desire or determination to do soÉor are totally bored by chess when they could be playing UT.
:-)

starfish

06-22-2004, 10:36 AM

Peter, are you being deliberately obtuse by any chance?

You keep on referring to simply mirroring and matching external behaviour.
This is only a small part of the whole. And remember we were talking about rapport here, not becoming a chess grand master.

Mirroring and matching does increase rapport, but it is not the whole of it. Internal state is also part of it.
Why does this work? Who cares?
Does it work? Yes.
Does it work every time in every situation? I doubt it.

I forget who coined the phrase "People who are like each other like each other"

This was noticed during the early phases of understanding NLP. You can use this or not. If it does not work for you, then look to yourself, do not just say it doesn't work. It does not work for you.

As to modelling and using the simple rapport techniques to become a chess grand master, well it just shows how little of NLP you actually know.
Modelling is not rapport building.

Are you ever going to say who actually called you the best UK stage hypnotist?

Peter St.Cloud

06-22-2004, 11:57 AM

Starfish:D

[QUOTE=starfish]Peter, are you being deliberately obtuse by any chance?

I forget who coined the phrase "People who are like each other like each other" [QUOTE]

The correct phrase is "People like other people whom they perceive as like themselves." and the person who coined the phrase was a relative of mine.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004
Moderator in training :)

Unregistered

06-24-2004, 12:46 AM

Gedday guys
I think Peter has done us all a small favour.
He has opened the discussion around rapprt and rapport building techniques.
Now, personally, I think his delivery leaves a lot to be desired.
In fact, he has delivered his message in the old Bandler/ Grinder tradition of an "In Your Face" message.
I'm not sure though that he has effectively communicated a desire for a discussion or an expansion of knowledge.
That is a shame as the discussion has merits.
For example, the studies he mentions are a problem. Yet, I have taught, as have many of you NLPers out there, rapport Building techniques and they have been effective.
I agree with the point that there needs to be an element of genuineness in interaction. It is a surprise coming from a stage hypnotist! but hey, we learn where we can.
There is clearly a gap between the studies and the experiences of many of us. Myself, I find the techniques to be useful but they rarely replace a real regard and empathy for the client. In fact, they can get in the way if there is an element of manipulation going on. (Yeah I know what Bandler and Grinder said about manipulation, but I also think the arguement needs to move on from there)
The NLP community doesn't do itself any favours when its members take on the arrogance and self righteousness apparently so brilliantly satired by "Lord" Peter. And many of us have done just that in relation to other therapy models and schools of psychology.
So, maybe we can ignore the ravings and provocations of any who want to distract us from the most useful part of this discussion and explore the how, when, what and even the why of building rapport.

Oznlp

skip

06-24-2004, 08:40 AM

Hi Oznlp,

How are things 'down under'?

I agree with you that "Lard Peter" does have his moments.

And I agree that rapport, what it is, how it is obtained, how it can be used, and such is indeed worthy of discussion. I fear that a genuine discussion of rapport might get lost buried as it would be in this rubble.

Would it be better, do you think, to initiate a thread on a higher note?

skip

FredrickTheLate

06-26-2004, 10:14 PM

Enough with the aristocracy nonsense. In France, Lord is not a title of nobility. It only mean that you own some land, even as a commoner. Even the use of Lord in this context was abolished in 1789. :eek:

Peter St.Cloud

06-28-2004, 06:30 AM

Hi readers :D

I will begin this reply by reminding certain individual on this forum that this thread is about NLP rapport techniques and how impractical they are in real live. Some of you on this forum instead of discussing the arguments I have made have decided instead to poke fun at me.

My university chum Tantric-wrenching expert "Don Juan Diego" was right when he told me that people would laugh at me if I let know I was a comedy stage hypnotist of nobility.

The remakes of "FredrickTheLate" are correct in the dictionary sense because the word Lord simply refers to someone with a great deal of power say like a landowner. But it also an informal title used in front of the name of a male member of English aristocracy like a marquis, earl, viscount or baron. An English earl corresponds to a count in continental Europe; my real title is Comte (count) Saint Cloud.

According to "Don Juan Diego"who also lectures at Carmarthen University on international and English Law. “You have the right to call yourself, and be known as anything you like”. So through the help of "Don Juan Diego"and other relevant channels my title changed to its approximate English equivalent title Lord.

Now lets keep to the subject matter of this post to NLP rapport techniques.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004
Moderator in training :)
Disclaimer remember I don’t fib in my posts, I simply present a different version from the truth.:rolleyes:

RussWilde

06-28-2004, 11:17 AM

"Don Juan Diego"
--isn't that a character name from "Carry On Columbus"??
Arguably the greatest of the carry-on films.

ÒYou have the right to call yourself, and be known as anything you likeÓ.
Call yourself what you like?
--like Don Juan Diego?

Sorry, just wanted to mention it.

...

Somehow, Cloud, you seem to have forgotten to answer peoples questions or respond to their comments on how you have failed to properly apply rapport techniques in your work as a comedy hypnotist and, as a damned good example, you have faioled to achieve rapport with the users of this buletin board also.

So, would you be willing to take on board some pointers from the professionals among us and possibly learn to advance yourself from this argumentative state?

you can see how your responses here have been particularly provocative opf the responses you've recieved can't you? I would rethink my stratergy if I were you. "If what you're doing isn't working, try something else."

RW

Serge

06-28-2004, 07:46 PM

[QUOTE=Peter St.Cloud]Hi Dita:)

...but as usually with NLP claims their no scientific evidence to support it. ..

"scientific evidence" is a big generalization like a term "science" itself. the methods for "scientific research" in social sciences are are mostly statistical. I can give you some "scientific evidences" about God's name from the number of people belong to different religions :D

If NLP would not come up with anything else but eye accessing cues, Bandler and Grinder would still deserve Nobel prize if one would be given in psychology. There are PhD dissertations written about testing them, however even 6-year old could do "scientific research" confirming this.

However, one can easily produce volumes of "scientific evidence" that there are no correlation of modes of information access with lateral eye movement - just ask people questions in language they do not know :D

Unregistered

07-09-2004, 12:42 AM

i havent posted since the new forum, thus my "Unregistered" nick

my name's John Warner, 1 or 2 of you might vaguely remember me.

i just wanted to take a minute to say that im a 3d artist who's trying to get a job in the games industry. i spend alot of time on art forums, having to do with the games industry, and am around kids all the time, posting just as i do.

i know a 13 year old that shows twice this maturity. Peter, i'm absolutely shocked by your opinions and attitude. if this is the way that you deal with people then anything that you have to say about rapport is absolutely transparent.

somebody please find this man and give him a phobia of hypnosis (and his keyboard) before he hurts someone.

Tomo

07-09-2004, 04:40 AM

Hi

How effective is NLP Rapport Techniques? He’s my opinion I can "pace and lead" – (Pace) match your verbal "intensity" (swearwords, volume, speed), body language etc. to build rapport, and then slow down my speech, become more articulate etc. to "lead" you to a more calm state.

BUT.... does matching these things build rapport?

About as much as listening to someone and pretending to care.

True Rapport is built on empathy acceptance and being generally interested in a person. Not pretending. In my opinion NLP is a pseudoscience of little use in the real world.

Ah, I see the real message here. You're no good at it so it must be nensense. You couldn't be more wrong, mate...;)

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud) -
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004
But it's still only July 2004. Wht happens if someone better than you comes along before New Year? What then? :D

Unregistered

07-27-2004, 06:17 AM

Wow peter!
What are you projecting?
isnt everything we do or say representative of who we are?

kind regards
razcat

Hi

How effective is NLP Rapport Techniques? He’s my opinion I can "pace and lead" – (Pace) match your verbal "intensity" (swearwords, volume, speed), body language etc. to build rapport, and then slow down my speech, become more articulate etc. to "lead" you to a more calm state.

BUT.... does matching these things build rapport?

About as much as listening to someone and pretending to care.

True Rapport is built on empathy acceptance and being generally interested in a person. Not pretending. In my opinion NLP is a pseudoscience of little use in the real world.

Peter Saint Cloud (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud) -
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic preformances(tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist - 2004

The Idea Dude

07-28-2004, 01:46 AM

Well...I have just read most of this thread. As both an NLP Master Practitioner and a Magician I am in an interesting position.

I could perhaps suggest some of the points you have raised Peter St.Cloud towards NLP back at your profession. However I will not. Instead I wish the all the best in your ILLUSIONS, because that is all they are :), and am inviting you to think of some of the positive things that you have learnt from NLP:)

BTW, whats so special about the picture of someone standing on someone on your homepage.....I am curious? :)

TID

Peter St.Cloud

08-05-2004, 11:18 AM

Unregistered

08-05-2004, 12:38 PM

Well Dude..

What positive thing positive things would that be then? Because when I find anything positive about NLP rapport techniques I will let you know. As I’ve said already NLP rapport techniques are impractical in real life and nobody has yet put forward a good reply to counter my argument.

New Worldwide Hypnosis Links Page (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/links_forum.htm)
Lord Peter Saint Cloud
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004
Moderator in training
Disclaimer remember I don’t fib in my posts, I simply present a different version from the truth.

Peter.

I took Practitioner training in NLP in 1986 which is where I first learned these techniques that you scorn so consistently. I have used these "ineffective" techniques since then professionally[Inside sales, recruting, and with tenants(as a real estate investor)] and socially for over 13+ years and they unquestionably have enabled me to influence a GREAT deal more than otherwise. I've witnessed many a well meaning therapist who despite thier compassionate, empathetic intentions couldn't sustain rapport.....

so respectfully either add something usefull or find another forum.

Jim

The Idea Dude

08-06-2004, 03:55 PM

Peter,

Because you live in the 'real world' i would think that your rapport skills would be awesome......yet on this forum it seems otherwise :)

solaris152000

08-06-2004, 04:05 PM

Here is my counter to your argument it involves three steps...

1. Learn NLP techniques; I bought "instant rapport" after it was recomened by don, so I read it and found it helpfull

2.Use them, you will find people are easier to persuade, if use speak through there primary representational sytem and if other methods and such.

3.You will have found that NLP does work and that you are wrong.

simple

solaris

Named: Simply the best hypnotist 2004
Winner of the solaris award for exellance.

Unregistered

09-03-2004, 11:18 PM

I am new to this type of forum. I have attended 2 days training in aspects NLP. I have just read the last 150 posts. This took some time. It will take me longer to ponder what I have learned from the experience, I think.

John Warner

09-04-2004, 01:52 PM

oh no! this thred again! :eek:

RussWilde

09-05-2004, 06:25 AM

Yeah, just whgen you thought is was safe to ignore this thread, it wakes up with a thirst for blood!!

I expect we'll never convince this cloudy geezer, that NLP raport techniques CAN work. Maybe they don't and NLP-ers are just naturally persuasive and charismatic.

Woah! - wait - Now I'm at it again!

Sorry folks, I'll let it rest in pieces.

RW

magicgirl

09-06-2004, 05:49 AM

I am also from the UK and have never heard of you - where are you based?

TLC

09-06-2004, 08:25 PM

Hi.

I'm new here, drawn in by this acrimonious "dust-up" over the disputed efficacy of rapport building techniques.

For what its worth, although Peter St.Cloud said one thing...that these techniques are not effective... I think he meant another thing: that the techniques are insincere, manipulative and possibly unethical. Your disagreements follow from that two-level confusion ( between what he said and what he meant ).

Regarding this ethical doubt, take for example the current phenomenon of a man selling courses in how to use ( or abuse ) such techniques to seduce women!

A friend of mine who died some years ago, before this "product" appeared on the market, maintained that his NLP techniques endowed him with great "pulling power" over women. He had results to support this, boasting that he could pick up women in the most challenging of environments. He tried to encourage me to copy his example. However, as far as I was concerned, his success was down to his glamour, good looks and apparent ( although not actual ) wealth. The rapport building techniques only contributed in that they enhanced his confidence, because he believed in them. I, on the other hand, know where not to waste my time!

In general situations, I do feel that these techniques are effective, although not as an aid to seduction, where social and physical factors far outweigh any other consideration. However, they were not invented with NLP, being described in texts on hypnotism for well over a century. Moreover, the impression I have that they work means nothing, No matter how many millions may believe in something...at one time that the Earth was flat.., this proves nothing. Science means not necessarily believing what one ( thinks ) one is seeing.

Incidentally, this business about being "The Best" hypnotist has long become a joke. There are thousands of stage hypnotists and nearly every one claims to be the best in their country, continent, or even the world. This is often comically contradicted by the evidence of the kind of venues at which they may perform. It seems that the doctrine of "prestige effect" is taken too literally and applied too uniformly by just too many operators. It leaves them open to ridicule and, moreover, presents barriers to this very matter of building rapport, with audiences and volunteers.

skip

09-07-2004, 07:12 AM

TLC,

"For what its worth, although Peter St.Cloud said one thing...that these techniques are not effective... I think he meant another thing: that the techniques are insincere, manipulative and possibly unethical. Your disagreements follow from that two-level confusion ( between what he said and what he meant )."

Wow thats quite a statement!

And you know this how?

Seems to me this requires a mind read of not only Peter, but also of those who disagreed with him.

AND it seems to ignore the idea that people who ARE sincere could use the specific skills for benifit. It also overlooks the notion that those who disagree, with Peter, might well be speaking from their experience, and not from a theoretical point of view.

It also disregards the idea that Peter might not be as skilled as he assumes, and is reporting HIS experience accurately.

AND it doesnt even take into account that Peter might be a troll, and is making a completely disingenious argument to begin with.

What would be the difference, between successfully faking sincerity, and genuine sincerity, from a first person, second person, third person, point of view?

cheers,

skip

John Warner

09-07-2004, 11:53 AM

http://www.wackyweaselworld.com/flameINC/images/owned80.jpg

haha i know these are horribly immature but i felt like posting one for some strange reason. nice responce Skip :)

TLC

09-07-2004, 04:29 PM

I base my inference of what he meant upon what he actually did say in subsequent posts. Its not "mind-reading" and as I made no comment on what others wrote I fail to note any basis for your charge that I did the same for them.

Your question about the difference between real and feined sincerity is mind-boggling. A basic aspect of Human experience is that there is a very big difference...for example between feigned grief when notifying next of kin of a loved-ones death ( made by someone who goes through the motions with tiresome frequency ) and the very real expressions of sincere grief by which the news is passed on to other members of the family.

Your comments about opinions being not theoretical but based upon experience were anticipated in my first post: by the simple observation that reality and our perception of it are not necessarily the same thing. It remains true, no matter how much experience you have, it means to you only what your interpretive faculties allow it to. At the las count, several million Americans believe that they have had experience of abduction by space-aliens. That does not make me believe in space-aliens.

Your observation that Peter St,Cloud's judgements are necessarily limited by the extent of his skill cuts both ways. It supports responses to his comments no more than his comments themselves. As might also be said of calling him "a troll". I cannot see name-calling helps an argument.

Peter St.Cloud

09-08-2004, 05:54 AM

Hi NLP devotees

...
The question you posed Skip, what would be the difference is between successfully faking sincerity, and genuine sincerity. Well it maybe Skip it has something to do with the fact that most of the general population can detect a difference. This is something that is back up by scientific evidence, rather than science fiction that most NLP techniques are based. NLP rapport techniques in my opinion only serve to make a person appear like one of those awful French mime artists without the makeup.

...
But out of all these silly attempts a wit we have been graced by a genuine reply by TLC that was run down by skip. TLC brought up a point that mainy people in NLP seem to avoid ETHICS.

NLP many years ago split into two distinct branches, one concerned with the use of practices like covert hypnosis in sales and personnel management (Business NLP) and the other concerning its use as a therapy (Therapy NLP).

The therapy side of NLP has become to hippy and new age in my opinion. It’s incorporated to many religious and semi religious practices from the occult and new age mumbo jumbo mystical philosophy, which is why it’s on the decline.

[font=Arial]From the business branch of NLP, the notorious seduction courses evolved, based on the tricks used by door to door salesman. [font=Arial]Instructors involved in this type of training seldom like taking about the ethics involved in using hypnosis for this purpose so its a good job that what they are teaching is a useless pile of dribble. [font=Arial]The only people being manipulated on seduction course are men who don’t seem to understand that no amount of hypnosis covert all not will get you in to bed with girl if your so geeky that you would have difficulty getting into a science fiction convention or a total slob with breath that could cut thought the doors of a bank vault.

Regards

Lord Peter Saint Cloud

[font=Arial]http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004 and thats offical solaris152000 you rascal:D
Moderator in training :D
Disclaimer remember I don’t fib in my posts, I simply present a different version from the truth. :rolleyes:

skip

09-08-2004, 09:13 AM

Hi Peter,

Welcome back.

I see things havent changed for you.

skip

TLC

09-08-2004, 06:32 PM

Hello again.

Skip says of St.Cloud "I see things haven't changed for you."

Is this not more ad-hominem.

skip

09-08-2004, 08:23 PM

TLC,

I suppose by this you mean that I called Peter a troll, and therefore anything he says is fallacious.

I think if you will recheck my post, I said you didnt take into account several possibilities, one of which is that Peter might be a troll.

Now some people might conclude that someone comming on a NLP list and making the unsubstantiated claim that "NLP rapport techniques are rubbish", must be a troll, because that IS very troll like behavior.

Since the statement runs counter to my own personal experience, I must conclude that Peter is either lying, or that his own personal experience is different than mine. I have no reason to believe that he is lying. Since I have trained many students who are themselves successful with rapport techniques, I make the logical conclusion that Peter is either insufficently trained, or skilled. I really dont care which.

Now I asked you a question, about faking sincerity, which both you and Peter misunderstood. My mistake in communication.

You said people can tell, and Peter wanted to make it an ethics issue.

Let me clarify, if someone successfully fakes sincerety, what is the difference between that, and genuine sincerity? From a first person, second person, and third person perspective. Key word "successfully".

The reason I ask, is that someone skilled in rapport techniques, does enter into rapport with people, and they feel a 'genuine' sense of connection, irregardless of the motive.

I have, in the course of my practice, done this with people ranging from 4 year olds to adult child molesters, some of whom I am happy and omfortable to be in rapport with, and others with whom I honestly dont want to share air.

My experience is one thing, theirs is quite another, and a third party observer is yet another still. (that depends on whether they know what I am doing or not)

I hope that offers some clarification, and I look forward to your answer.

skip

magicgirl

09-09-2004, 02:59 AM

Peter

I have to say that I disagree with your opinion on both the ethics of people doing NLP and NLP in therapy. Now my opinions come from my expereiences but from my experience I have been trained in NLP to a very high standard but what has been one of the most important parts of this is that it is always ECOLOCIGAL to all concerened and also that it has an ecologiocally positive impact in all areas of life of all those concerened and that it is only ever used to EMPOWER people!! And ALWAYS with PERMISSION!!!

So from my own experiences of how I was trained in NLP, how I use NLP and how others use NLP, eithics is very very important....but I guess like any system it is open to abuse and so maybe you have come across people who use NLP who aren't ethical?

This doesn't mean that "all" people who use NLP avoid ethics - this may simply mean that in your own universe this is what you experience and if this is the case - instead of coming on here and slating people and NLP techniques you may get further if you work out what these things you experience in your own universe realte to inside yourself and then maybe you will get some answers.

As far as NLP in therapy being hippyish, religious and on the decline .....RUBBISH...are you sure you live in the UK - maybe it is a different UK to me - as this is the total opposite to what I experience and all others around me who use NLP both in business and therapy

I am a transformational coach, I coach people through transforming their lives in just 7 hours, I find NLP rapport techniques invaluable, infact I find all NLP, TLT, Hypnosis techniques invaluable and get fantastic results for both myself and others - as I am sure many of the other people here do too

So what I suggest you do is look inside yourself and find out whats going on inside to create this universe outside that you live in!!!

Jack

09-09-2004, 05:26 AM

Hello All,

It is interesting how much furore Peter's posting has created; possibly his intention as is his repeated use of his website address.

For what it's worth: IMO NLP has many useful things to tell us about the nature of communication. Some of it is of course Californian twaddle. Rapport is an interesting area. I am aware of Dr Heap's research and agree with much of his conclusions, but my agreement or not is irrelevent.

If you try to mimic the behavioural patterns of another it will invariably become transparent and ridiculous unless you actually feel that your behavioural posturing is appropriate. Most good NLP practitioners do not even think about what they should do next. They do it; it is unconscious and they are not aware of flicking to page 42 of the NLP Practitioners Manual, vol 53.

Similarly, good hypnotherapists are not aware of their own behaviour. I do not use the word 'hypnotist' because any Tom, Dick or Peter can learn how to induce a trance state whether they have good rapport with the subject or not. To use either NLP or hypnotherapy effectively demands unconscious skills, some of which are learnt behaviour and some of which are instinctual or genetic; I have no idea which. Erickson demonstrated how this works every time he did therapy.

So, the argument that has raged is not really an argument. I am not Erickson. I do not possess his inherent abilities, but I have some of my own which are neither inferior nor superior to his, just different. (Doesn't stop me thinking he was a genius!) Skip, Merlin, Terry and all the other experienced people here all have their own, as indeed does Peter. Peter's are not the same as anyone else's, and his experience of NLP tells him that building rapport is not something he can do by numbers.

I agree with him. Building rapport is not something HE can do by numbers. It may however be something others can do and is therefore valuable to them.

Ultimately all we are arguing about is perception and therefore there is no logical argument, only opinion.

Jack

Peter St.Cloud

09-09-2004, 06:05 AM

Hi Fans:D

First can I say people would understand my replies if Don reframed from mutilating them like as a Jason Voorhees victim. What Don calls insults and irrelevant comments are very well crafted linguistic ploys.

But one thing we must establish here is the fact that NLP is becoming riddled with new age practices that have no value in therapy room. To claim NLP is not marketed as a tool for manipulation is living in a world of self-denial. One only has to browse the net to see with their own eye the tens of thousands of websites pedalling NLP for this purpose.

Also I noticed a disturbing trend some years ago that NLP trainers now teach NLP plus some new age practice like Reiki or Huna. Even the seduction courses now contain some kind of dodgy occult practice. But as I’ve already said in a previous post the only people being manipulated on these courses are the men that are stupid enough to fall for the sales hype. NLP rapport techniques have also gone down the same path and now incorporate a useless load of hocus-pocus.

Connecting to a person is easy and does not require bizarre practices, the way I gain rapport is a lot easier than NLP practitioners and does not rely on new age mumbo jumbo. NLP practitioners provided no evidence that NLP techniques work, especially NLP rapport skills.

As I was writing this message I noticed Jacks comments concerning
Milton Erickson, because so much rubbish as been wrote about this man it difficult to know where fantasy ends and fact begins. Its only a matter of opinion if he was as good as some indervidals claim.

Regards

Peter Saint Cloud
http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/ (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004 and thats offical solaris152000 you rascal:D
Moderator in training :D
Disclaimer remember I don’t fib in my posts, I simply present a different version from the truth. :rolleyes:

Terry (existing)

09-09-2004, 09:04 AM

TROLL, an individual who deliberately enters into a conversation with the intent to create argument rather than discussion......

TLC, can we agree on the definition please?

If so, is Peter not by definition a troll? Skip was polite about it, I choose not to be in the light of your reply, which seems to define the word in a different manner, one I could not agree with, since I, like many, are stuck with the above definition.....
Now I have no problem with trolls, I can engage them if I choose, or ignore them, but at least I never feel it nescessary to cover up the fact of what they are, since they made a deliberate choice to become a troll, and expect what they get. In fact, they would be unhappy if the results differed. Unfortunately, anyone can say anything annonymously, and get away with it unless they offer a personal insult, in which case it is dealt with. In my opinion, trolls shoud be eradicated, but I don't make the rules, just live with them, and that means making choices as must you. Now Peter I can live with, since he at least has the good grace to offer his real name, not hide behind a nom de guerre or nom de plume...
I must say, this one thread has generated an awfull lot of discussion, but I question the value of it to anyone, as I do of all troll inspired threads.

Peter St.Cloud

09-09-2004, 11:12 AM

Terry!

stop acting like a sore loser, the real reason you dislike my comments is because you have no comeback for cold hard FACTS. If anything you and Skip are guilty of the very thing you accuse me off. You replies are nothing more than insults designed to avoiding answering the genuine question I have put forward for discussion.

Regards

Lord Peter Saint Cloud

http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/ (http://www.geocities.com/peterstcloud/)
Simply the best name in first class hypnotic performances (tm)
Named Best UK Stage Hypnotist – 2004 and thats offical Moderator in training :D
Disclaimer remember I don’t fib in my posts, I simply present a different version from the truth. :rolleyes:

John Warner

09-09-2004, 05:06 PM

i just got a plesant p.m from our friend here, who felt it was nessisary to inform me that i was "sad"

pete, your a troll. there's no reason for saying what you're saying, other than to start an argument.

Hibbitty

09-09-2004, 05:44 PM

NLP practitioners provided no evidence that NLP techniques work, especially NLP rapport skills.No evidence. None. Not a single instance. Never.

You have no credibility, son. None.

Shouldn't you be lurking under a bridge somewhere?

Hibbs

TLC

09-09-2004, 05:49 PM

Well, Jack, a "troll" is in fact a large, vicious troglodyte which, according to Scandinavian folklore used to lurk near bridges to exact penance from passing travellers. By a circuitous route it is probably the origin of "toll", This is what it says in encyclopedias and dictionaries. Its how Ive used the word for forty years. You may have started using it as some sort of internet slang word. But the internet has only been around for a few years, whereas the word "troll" has been used for nearly athousand. So, like most educated people, I am stuck with that definition ( as you put it ). Slang is not an aid to communication but a means by which groups exclude outsiders.

Having sorted that out, I disagree that St.Cloud is what you call a "troll", or as others might say, contentious for its own sake. He seems sincerely irritated if not actually intoxicated, or in ( British ) slang terms, "pissed-off" if not actually "pissed".

Incidentally, as for hiding behind a "nom de guerre" as you accuse me of doing, it is worth noting that this means "war-name" and yet as far as I can tell, I have not been beligerent. Perhaps a therapist might consider hiis own capacity for counter-transference or simply projection. Anyway, "Jack" is hardly a specific name. How many millions of you Jacks are there. The same being true of "Skip". However, I shall have to reply to him in a following post, as we keep getting powewr fluctuations here which have resulted in this being my third attempt to reply before being cut-off!

TLC

TLC

09-09-2004, 06:16 PM

Skip.

I do apologise for tandem posting like this, but at the last two attempts to reply to two people at once I got cut off and there seems to be no way to save it off-line on my Trojan-afflicted computer.

The peculiar sense in which you use "troll" clarifies what you were commenting about St.Cloud. Incidentally, I do not know him and am not posting on his behalf. But nonetheless, I stand by my charge that your comment "...I see things havent changed for you" is ad hominem.

You repeat your comment about needing a "1st, 2nd, 3rd person" model of the difference between rael and feigned sincerity and the implications thereof. I already answered that the first time you raised it, giving you just such an example: If you ( 1st person ) are from the army, sent to tell a woman her husband has been killed in Iraq, you may use your NLP training to convince her of your sincere grief but feel nothing, having done it hundreds of times. She ( 2nd person to your perspective ) exhibits genuine sincerity when expressing grief to her family. They ( 3rd person to us ) respond accordingly. But your ( 1st person ) fake sincerity, even if it is indistinguishable from her sincere expression of grief, has the opposite motive: you are trying to soothe her so she will accept the situation, whilst she may try to stir her family into joining her in a protest. The motives and possible results are utterly divergent.

You also again ignore a point which I raised in two previous posts. That simply asserting that your experience , or that of your students, proves something, does nothing of the sort. All experience is an interpretation of perceptions coloured by learnings. This is really basic under-graduate stuff. It is so very easy to demonstrate in experiments how the world really is not as we experience it. Take your clients. You mention a 4 year old and a child molester. Surely you can see how they would experience a given situation in two vastly different ways. That individuals or groups consistently experience similar situations in the same terms proves nothing. There is such a thing as "constant error". As I mentioned in a previouys post, millions of Americans have had nocturnal experiences which they have experienced as alien abductions. That does not make that experience a valid explanation of those nocturnal events. As I mentioned in a post before that, we tend to experience the world as flat, even if we know that it is not. To keep saying that we experience it to be flat does not prove that it is.

By the same token, it proves nothing to keep saying "I know I am right, because I am better than you", which is essentially what you keep saying to St.Cloud. Or else you claim his comments are insincere and can thus be ignored, much as Jack did. Which strikes nme as denial. If you really believe what you think you experience to be the "reality", you should try to figure out how to demonstrate this objectively. Or else you could just turn your back on critical debate and huddle uop with your pals, talking in a made-up language.

TLC

09-09-2004, 06:25 PM

Correction:

When I wrote "Jack" I was referring to "Terry", but the points remain true, there are millions of people with that name, so it is no more specific than TLC.

TLC

09-09-2004, 06:37 PM

Correction: for "Jack", read "Terry".

TLC

09-09-2004, 06:42 PM

CORRECTION: For "Jack" read "Terry".
For "Troll" read a dictionary.

Zanther

09-09-2004, 09:02 PM

First I need to make clear that “Peter Saint Cloud” is my Real name also my full title is Lord Peter Saint Cloud my late father was of French aristocratic decent. So consider yourselves honoured by my presents. You can rise up from your knees now. :D Aso I can back up my credentials and qualifications can you?
Wondering what the point of posting that was...obviously you care what others think otherwise you wouldn't have responded, but by responding in the way you did, I'm pretty sure others' opinions of you were lowered...which I assume you care about since you replied, whether joking or not, you created a negative effect.

Terry (existing)

09-09-2004, 09:14 PM

First of all, the term troll as applied to internet language, is as I described it, so attempting to correct me is not nescessary. I am well aware of dictionary definitions, but also that language changes with the times, and no doubt the dictionary you are using had not caught up with moderm terminalogy. As for "nom de guerre," I am aware of what that means also, and I do indeed find you confrontational though that may be only my interpretation of what you write, and if so, and no intent existed to quarrel with the rest of the board, my apologies.....However, I believe that this thread has outlived it's usefullness, and your attempts to continue it are very confrontational. Why else would you persist? Terry

Grover

09-10-2004, 01:02 AM

In my opinion NLP is a pseudoscience of little use in the real world.

Yes, I do think NLP is a pseudoscience.....how about hypnosis.....any empirical evidences there?

And although NLP is of little use in the real world.....let's benefit of any use, how little it even may be.....

Greetings, earthling

j0hnny#

09-10-2004, 01:54 AM

Having sorted that out, I disagree that St.Cloud is what you call a "troll", or as others might say, contentious for its own sake. He seems sincerely irritated if not actually intoxicated, or in ( British ) slang terms, "pissed-off" if not actually "pissed".

:rolleyes:

Jack

09-10-2004, 04:47 AM

Hello TLC,

I have to assume you made a typo since I did not call anyone a troll at any time.

Jack

magicgirl

09-10-2004, 05:33 AM

Hi Grover

Sorry I do not fully understand your post - are you agreeing that NLP is not of use in the real world?

If so what are you basing this opinion on?

Hibbitty

09-10-2004, 10:46 AM

By the same token, it proves nothing to keep saying "I know I am right, because I am better than you", which is essentially what you keep saying to St.Cloud.

...

If you really believe what you think you experience to be the "reality", you should try to figure out how to demonstrate this objectively.
...
NLP rapport techniques are inherently subjective processes but nonetheless have a great deal of empirical evidence to support their utility. Even if all of the evidence were laid out, sources cited, etc. I think you two would continue with your egoistic tripe.

It's like in that Monty Python movie where the knight is guarding that bridge and all his appendages get cut off, but still remains defiant...

...
Hibbs

Grover

09-10-2004, 01:56 PM

Hey Magicgirl,

Sorry you didn't quite catch the message. What I am saying that, NLP is of use, yes it is. And even if people like Peter StC. think it is limited, we can still decide to benefit from all "little uses" and make a big one out of them.

And hypnosis is also of little use. It only enables me to get in better touch with my subconscious and allow for more suggestions. That's all. It doesn't help me if I'm broke, if my car has flat tyres, if my dog bites, so quite little use. And still it makes me happy.....

Howdie
Bas.

TLC

09-10-2004, 02:15 PM

Well, I replied to Skips last post, at great effort, as I had to write it out on three seperate occasions, having the first two times been cut off prematurely. In any case, my answers to his pouints are already in my previous posts, as are my questions which he ignores.

I also posted ( or attempted to ) to point out that where I wrote "Jack" I should have written "Terry". Apologies for any confusion.

Regarding Grover's post: neither NLP or hypnotism are sciences, "pseudo" or otherwise. Each is an "art", in the sense that cookery or wine-making are arts. Also like cookery or wine-making, the arts of hypnotism and NLP contain many beliefs thast are demonstrably true but also many suppositions and claims that have no evidence to support them. It is like the English obsession with whether to pour tea before milk or milk before tea. Proponents of each swear that their method tastes better. But no experimental research exists on the matter as far as I know. How do you quantify taste?

skip

09-11-2004, 09:50 AM

TLC,

Im gonna parse your post if I may.

"I do apologise for tandem posting like this, but at the last two attempts to reply to two people at once I got cut off and there seems to be no way to save it off-line on my Trojan-afflicted computer."

I had something similar happen to me. If you are still having problems. privately message me, I will offer you some web sites that were invaluable to me to get rid of the 'malware' I got in a drive by download.

"The peculiar sense in which you use "troll" clarifies what you were commenting about St.Cloud. Incidentally, I do not know him and am not posting on his behalf. But nonetheless, I stand by my charge that your comment "...I see things havent changed for you" is ad hominem."

Im not going to continue to debate with you on this. If you think I called him a troll, then so be it. If it suits Peter to claim that I called him a troll, then so be it. What I said was that you hadnt taken that into consideration, in a list of several possibilities. If you were unsure as to my intent, you could have asked. Instead you have made up your mind, despite my denial. OK Peter is a troll, so what? Didnt hurt Peter, and certainly does nothing to enhance my argument.

"You repeat your comment about needing a "1st, 2nd, 3rd person" model of the difference between real and feigned sincerity and the implications thereof. I already answered that the first time you raised it, giving you just such an example: If you ( 1st person ) are from the army, sent to tell a woman her husband has been killed in Iraq, you may use your NLP training to convince her of your sincere grief but feel nothing, having done it hundreds of times. She ( 2nd person to your perspective ) exhibits genuine sincerity when expressing grief to her family. They ( 3rd person to us ) respond accordingly. But your ( 1st person ) fake sincerity, even if it is indistinguishable from her sincere expression of grief, has the opposite motive: you are trying to soothe her so she will accept the situation, whilst she may try to stir her family into joining her in a protest. The motives and possible results are utterly divergent."

Again I suppose I wasnt very clear. I confess I am beginning to wonder how I could be more clear. I dont need the definition, I was wondering if you could see it on your own. If someone successfully fakes sincerity, there is only one person who knows it, and that is the person themselves. From a second or third person point of view, it is completely indistinguishable from 'genuine sincerity', and there might be an argument that perfectly faked sincerity, is genuine sincerity. I disagree. I have had occasion to work with child molesters, and I can get them into a state of rapport that allows them to tell me things they wouldnt reveal to anyone else. All the while still personally feeling repulsed, and that they are reprehensible.

To use your earth argument, I experience Peter's perspective, that rapport techniques are rubbish, as if he were claiming the world is flat, when I have been around it. For me it falls short of being convincing, and frankly I doubt that he would be able to persuade me otherwise. From an NLP perspective, believing that rapport techniques work, or that the world is round ,offers me far more choice than Peter's position, and so I would happily choose to believe, whether it were really true or not.

"You also again ignore a point which I raised in two previous posts. That simply asserting that your experience , or that of your students, proves something, does nothing of the sort. All experience is an interpretation of perceptions coloured by learnings. This is really basic under-graduate stuff. It is so very easy to demonstrate in experiments how the world really is not as we experience it... some snippage"

For you, TLC, to make the argument that my experience falls short of convincing argument, because it is only my belief, while Peter's, which is also only his belief, is valid, well thats certainly dazzeling incongruity, on your part.

"By the same token, it proves nothing to keep saying "I know I am right, because I am better than you", which is essentially what you keep saying to St.Cloud."

I wish you would stop mind reading me, and ask if you arent sure. Actually I am saying that my experience, and that of many others is different from his. I dont know who is right, but I do know whose experience falls in the vast minority. I offered an explanation for why his experience may be as he calims. Specifically that he lacks skill in rapport. This, for me, is convincingly proven, by his scintillating display of rapport attainment, here on this forum.

Interestingly, he has yet to offer an explanation as to why my experience might be as I claim.

"Or else you claim his comments are insincere and can thus be ignored, much as Jack did. Which strikes me as denial."

Now this is problematic. I think the thrust of Jack's point was that Peter's outcome on this forum isnt necessarily to prove his stated 'belief' that NLP techniques are rubbish. That isnt exactly saying that Peter is insincere. Who says it isnt OK to doubt someones motives, especially when someone fails to gain sufficent rapport, to gain trust? You say people have built in bull **** detectors, and thats how they would spot insincerity. Well I suspect one of the "built in detectors", you say people have, went off, for Jack. Why are you saying that is denial?

"If you really believe what you think you experience to be the "reality", you should try to figure out how to demonstrate this objectively. Or else you could just turn your back on critical debate and huddle uop with your pals, talking in a made-up language."

I am not going to debate epistomology here. I dont pretend that what I experience is reality, as Peter, and apparently you do. I do wish that you would apply the same ridgid standards to Peter and yourself. Are you both not claiming to know reality? Where is your disagreement with him on that point? BUT if it is a demonstration you want, attend any basic NLP instruction, and you will recieve ample demonstration.

The nice thing about this all is, Peter gets to state his opinion. I get to state my thoughts and opinions about Peter's opinions. Not only does Peter get to reply, but you get to state your opinions about my opinions of Peter. And everyone else gets to say what they think about the lot of us.

have fun,

skip

Terry (existing)

09-12-2004, 08:22 PM

Why would you need to quantify "taste"? Stated properly, the fact is, milk before tea does indeed taste DIFFERENT to tea before milk. As to which is best, I leave that to the taste buds of the person drinking it. But when it comes to an argument as to if they taste different, such tests have been carried out, by me for one, and they do indeed differ sufficiently for me to tell the difference easily. If you think that such a test is only imperical, and therefor not valid, show me why such is the case. I can also tell if my coffer has chickory in it, though this is probably rare for a Limey. However, I have been in Canada since 58 so have had a lot of time to learn the difference, and though the chickory is added to reduce cost, I personally preffer to have it in my coffee if I have the choice.

magicgirl

09-13-2004, 06:12 AM

Hi Grover

Thanks for explaining more around your post -although I have to disagree that either NLP or hypnosis are of "little use" - in my opinion they are ALOT of use and the various tools and processes I have learnt to become and master practitioner will definately help people find out why they are broke and what they could be doing instead, whats going on inside that caused the person to create a situaiton where a dog bit them etc etc - but thats just my opinion :-)

Keith Livingston

10-02-2004, 07:36 AM

Here are some links from the NLP research database (and a brief quote from each study abstract).

http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=52_rdb.dat&f_count=1
This result supported the contention that matching of the client's PRS with counselor predicates can enhance the atmosphere of trust in the relationship.

http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=52_rdb.dat&f_count=1
Each of the four hypotheses were supported.

http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=60_rdb.dat&f_count=1

The results obtained suggested partial support for Bandler and Grinder's (1976) theories.

http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=77_rdb.dat&f_count=1
The difference was in the expected direction with those students in the similar predicates condition rating their interviewers higher on perceived empathy than those students in the dissimilar predicates condition.

http://www.nlp.de/cgi-bin/research/nlp-rdb.cgi?action=res_record&files=85_rdb.dat&f_count=1

Subjects rated the experimental rapport method trainer significantly higher, on an analysis of variance, than all seven control trainers (p<.001).

Sincerely,

Keith Livingston

Pdrive

07-10-2005, 06:59 AM

This is simply the best thread i've ever read!

it's 12:30pm, and I meant to go to bed ages ago - but I simply cant remove my eyes from the screen.

Im honoured to be the one to pull this thread back from the grave:D

Where is our good friend Mr Cloud these days?!... I was recently in the UK, I would have gone to one of his award winning shows, had I know he even existed.

My question is:

How do you become "simply the best" stage hypnotist without using NLP?:confused:

... if Mr cloud is really the best, lets go and model him!:eek:

Pdrive

I cried a river when I realised his website has long since taken a dive.:(

coyotekin

07-13-2005, 11:45 AM

I have read this thread from start to finish and I have to admit that I am thoroughly amused. :) I do find Peter to be a rather pompous, arrogant, and narcissistic individual, but that is his choice and his opinion. I also do find him to be a troll, in the sense of the modern, internet, slang definition despite TLC's annoyance at the word's new use. And this is all from an unbiased opinion from just observation.

TLC, I do feel your pain in the annoyance at slang uses of proper words as I to have a few words that I will not use in the more modern sense. Mind you, having used these words for and large measure of time or not you will see that definitions do adapt, in a slang sense if you will, in different eras and times. And unfortunately there is not much you can do about it beyond sticking to your guns and continue to use the words as you see fit or as they were originally meant.

Peter, I truly do not have any issues with you personally as this is but a discussion, although I do find it rather counter-productive to argue your case about proper and improper, not your words exactly I understand, methods of establishing rapport while you present yourself in an antagonistic manner. And this is from observations of your interactions with the various members of this forum. I also personally see no point in "flashing your badge" to everyone here, in reference to heritage and apparent skill as noted by whatever media source, as many forum members, no matter the forum, tend to judge and guage your skills, intellect, what have you upon your contributions within a forum. So if you feel that you are being attacked then I ask you to do as a writer would, even when they feel their works are wondrous and awe-inspiring, to step back, take a break, and with a clear mind re-read your work and see it from an objective perspective. You may just find many flaws, possibly imporvement, or properly established arguments within the confines of the media at hand.

Beyond all of this I base many of my own opinions, no matter what they may be, upon what I have seen posted before-hand. With that in mind I have great respect for quite a few of the members of this forum to include, but not being all defining: Don, Skip, Terry (Existing), Merlin, and many more. I feel, IMHO, that these individuals, to include many not mentioned as of yet, are straight-forward, honest, and non-evasive in their comments and advice.

And do not worry about the Narcissistic comment as in the words of the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland, "We are all a little mad here." That and Narcissists too. :)

MyFirstDay

07-24-2005, 12:17 PM

From many years competing and having various techniques in sports rehab can I just point out that many different techniques work for many different people.

The mirroring and matching I used prior to doing the fabulous thing - doing my NLP prac course. I used it in coaching and then working with athletes in the sports therapy side of things in actual rehab in the gym and on site with thier specific sport.

I certainly found it hugely useful then and even more so now learning it properly but as usual, its however Peter percieves what works for him and his clients in his particular speciality.

Peter, your posts certainly put another angle on techniques for me which is hugely interesting and also points I had not considered.

anyway - just thought I would stick my oar in!!

Yours

Emma x

Makani

07-28-2005, 03:23 AM

Whether scientifically proven (yawn) or not, I respectfully submit that NLP Spelling Strategies work as do spell checks on pc's. Somebody's governess must have been distracted by illusions or...something.

PAY ATTENTION TO THAT MAN IN FRONT OF THE CURTAIN!

(Really fun thread for insomniacs)

Makani

07-28-2005, 04:56 PM

Hmmm...maybe he is the best, my post disappeared!:eek:

My point of info was that, despite science or lack of any other man-made- includes- observer- measurement, I do know that the Spelling Strategy of NLP works. If not that, I'm sure the magic of one's pc spellchecker would help immensely, although the thread wouldn't be nearly as entertaining. Perhaps our aristocratic friend's governess was too boggled by the illusions played out by her childish charge to get her job done properly. C'est bien dommage.

PAY ATTENTION TO THE MAN IN FRONT OF THE CURTAIN! He needs the love.

Dan

08-04-2005, 05:12 AM

I think the poster has a point, for instance ive read alot about NLP i use most of richard bandlers material (books and dvd's) im still not taken by NLP and because im aware of the techniques if i caught someone using them on me to gain rappor or even worse trying to persuade me i would not be a very happy bunny...

Newbe Girl

08-04-2005, 09:13 AM

I have to say reading the posts of his lordship; this guy does have a good point. Which has not been seriously answered. Also is he really an English Lord.

Don

08-04-2005, 11:17 AM

RussWilde

08-04-2005, 03:32 PM

If you *caught* someone *using* these techniques, you'd have to ask yourself;
are they being an NLP-er or are they just trying to establish rapport with you naturally?

NLP as I understand it, is a language for defining and sharing the methods and techniques of successful people, be they business practices, theraputic practices or personal practices.

So NLP rapport techniques are, in fact, an illustration of how people who are successful at gaining, maintaining and using rapport naturally, do so and how you can be more aware of how you already use these techniques albeit to varying degrees.

So if you catch someone using NLP rapport techniques, they could well be just naturally likeable people, who naturally gain rapport through these methods without studying and practicing.

I know several who perform 99% of NLP rapport techniques but know nothing of NLP. It's educational to watch them in conversation, especially how they naturally mirror people.

Don

08-04-2005, 05:53 PM

I suppose that would depend upon the techniques. :-)

However, I think that the key, here, is the use of the plural term "techniques." From what I've seen, most people who are naturally trying to establish rapport don't go through a list of techniques, but naturally do one or two things.

Shelby131

08-13-2005, 07:13 AM

Not having ever seen Mr. St. Could or anything by him, I can't speak for how "good" his shows might be, but I would contest that he would have to be pretty awesome to out do Chris Angel. Technically, Chris is not a stage hypnotist... but has anyone else seen this guy? He is a natural and an amazing entertainer. I was watching his show "Mindfreak" on A&E recently and was very impressed with his hypnotism skills. I wonder where he has been trained? If you haven't seen him, check it out on Wednesday nights on A&E!!

Don

08-13-2005, 01:45 PM

I've seen three of his Mindfreak TV shows and didn't see him use hypnosis at all. Remember, that show is highly edited and intended for entertainment. It may not give an accurate impression of what is really taking place.

Shelby131

08-13-2005, 03:19 PM

Oh, yes, I understand and agree it is for entertainment and nothing like therapy!!! I was just commenting on him as a good entertainer. The episode that I saw did use stage hypnosis and a type of rapid induction to get his subjects, who were out of the audience and right off the streets, to totally relax and then he did the levitation illusion. He is a natural entertainer and he seemed to have quite a handle on the "induction" that he used. He has had to have had SOME hypnosis training judging by the clip I saw.

My comment was more along the lines of saying that to claim that they are "simply the best" stage hypnotist, I was just pointing out some competition! :)

Don

08-13-2005, 06:07 PM

He is a good entertainer. I agree.

But the hypnosis on the person who then levitated was just a show. He didn't hypnotize the person at all. I won't reveal the secret, but the person had to have been "prepared" with a "special something" for the levitation to work. There was no need to hypnotize and he didn't. He did pretend to hypnotize, and she pretended to be hypnotized, for the show. That same time of bit has been used by thousands of magicians before their assistants were sawed, floated, burned, suspended, stabbed, distorted, etc.

Peter St.Cloud

10-29-2007, 03:35 PM

Don

10-29-2007, 05:09 PM

Peter, believe it or not many people read these forums. Comments made here are for public consumption. To assume that any posts are made specifically to convince us and not inform others is like assuming that a book written by J.K. Rowlings was written just for us and nobody else.

Merlin

10-29-2007, 05:40 PM

Well, golly!

Soren K (existing)

10-30-2007, 04:42 AM

I can saftly say my opinions have not change about NLP or its approch to ganing rapport.

Not everything conveyed in the subject predicate form is an object with properties - it's quite natural to be fooled by this, in fact it happens all the time.

Nigel H

10-30-2007, 06:45 AM

Why would someone come on an NLP forum to instantly put up a discussion on how 'rubbish' it is .............??

.... Conveniently noting that they are a stage hypnotist of some standing with a link to their website - it seems unusual that I am the one to raise the potential advertising link here, since I am normally the one who misses such possibilities until others have raised them!

The original comments though ... reminds me of a phrase - something to do with work-men blaming tools ...... !! Though this retort has already been stated.

What presents is it that we receive from you - whilst being graced with your presence?? In the context of your use of language through that posting I was unsure whether this was a deliberate use of the word or not ...... what picture of yourself are you trying to present?

If trying to advertise yourself, so far the outcome appears somewhat negative. If that is an unfair comment then I would simply ask what the purpose of the initial post was, given the place it is posted and general tone that has followed.....??

Nigel H

10-30-2007, 07:00 AM

According to a comment on-line - he is :

"funnier than a man with a lampshade on his head"

So - as I love all things that are placed upon the head with sillyness and humour in mind, this could be a good place to start!!

Cheers!

Connie

10-30-2007, 07:52 AM

Do I have to read this entire thing before I comment? :D :p Maybe his posting here was a test in non-rapport. lol. Ok, I'll read it now.

Connie

10-30-2007, 08:01 AM

So consider yourselves honoured by my presents.

So, his presence was a present??? Mine, too. And all of us.

I scanned it. Too much muckraking rubbish to read. My conclusion: there were some cool articulate people who contributed to this thread, I wish they were still around and posting. Peter St. Cloud is not one of them. :D

Terry

10-30-2007, 12:59 PM

I have no problem with what someone else chooses to believe so Peter is free to choose his own path. However, I choose to read with care such posts as show the personality of the poster....
In this case it is easy. It seems that his lordship is living on the laurels of the past, which suggests just the oposite of what he claims. I suggest that anyone who depends on ancestry to bolster his importance, is living in the past because he has no reason to be proud of himself and his own achievements....
It matters not what you were, (ancestry) in comparison to what you have made of yourself, (growth). Therefor Peter, allow me to choose not to believe your claims knowing that you don;t believe them either.
... it is so easy to read the truth from what is said in a few posts...

My advise would be to put some effort into becoming something you can be proud of, but if that proves too much for you, please don;t complain when someone tells you you are wrong, because you lack knowledge which others have gained through hard work and study.... I shall now put you on "Ignore" because I find it painfull to read ...

Potato

10-31-2007, 07:20 PM

I suggest that anyone who depends on ancestry to bolster his importance, is living in the past because he has no reason to be proud of himself and his own achievements.

Can I put this quote on my Facebook profile, attributed to "Terry"?

Terry

10-31-2007, 08:39 PM

Can I put this quote on my Facebook profile, attributed to "Terry"? Anyone is welcome to use it, and I have no need of recognition :) I imagine that although I espouse it, it is likely that the same sentiments are remarked on elswere, it certainly isn;t a new idea...

Potato

11-01-2007, 09:38 PM

Anyone is welcome to use it, and I have no need of recognition :) I imagine that although I espouse it, it is likely that the same sentiments are remarked on elswere, it certainly isn;t a new idea...

No, but you put it eloquently and succinctly, and I appreciate that. Thanks for letting me use it :cool:

Nigel H

11-02-2007, 10:18 AM

Peter Quoted --- " But one thing we must establish here is the fact that NLP is becoming riddled with new age practices that have no value in therapy room. To claim NLP is not marketed as a tool for manipulation is living in a world of self-denial. One only has to browse the net to see with their own eye the tens of thousands of websites pedalling NLP for this purpose"

[I ask you - "Marketed by whom?"]

Or to use your thought process - in that case you had better stop your nasty porn Peter......

.... after all - one only has to browse the net to see with their own eye the tens of thousands of websites pedalling 'the web' for this purpose ......... and you have been using the web, so with your own evidence you are pushing PORN on us all ............. oh damn ..... I must be doing it too - ahhh.
:o
AND - actually I think perhaps is it possible we are all actually arguing the toss on this without remembering that the Rapport methodology was taken from modelling what happens in real life when people 'get on'.

It was noticed that people will naturally mirror each other to a degree and share certain tonality, breathing patterns etc etc

So ..... to actually suggest that it doesn't work, is - to me, denying the verifiable behaviour of people who like each other and get on by doing 'rapport' naturally - without 'trying'......

If you genuinely believe that rapport doesn't work, then the only way to verify this is to suggest that NOBODY likes anyone else .......... and having suggested that you gain rapport with people, you admit it exists.

So ..... it seems that what is being debated is the efficiency with which the natural occurence has been modelled and broken down, to then be taught to people as something to do, in order to 'improve their communication and connection' with those around them, whether in a therapy scenario or otherwise.

So - as has been suggested by others here - this will depend to a large degree on the person attempting to use this 'artificial' NLP rapport skill/technique to a certain pupose.

If you REALLY believe it does not work at all, then why would it concern you that anyone would try to sell it as a method to manipulate people, since if it does not work - and clearly you are resolute in this belief - then no-one will be able to use it to mis-sell NLP to the gullible who may be caught in their 'rapport-trap' and tricked in to whatever it is.

Either it works - and hence people can mis-use it for their own gain, if they are of that mind-set [which is a mind-set not held by those here that I have encountered thus far], or it does not work, in which case no-one can use it and your 'gripe' will just evaporate now!

Cheers all ..!!

Nig

Soren K (existing)

11-02-2007, 03:25 PM

Either it works - and hence people can mis-use it for their own gain

Sitting together watching The Simpsons after macaroni and chips, my kid (4) says 'please can i have a yogurt drink dad, how about you get me one' - no problem - often I'd oblige (sometimes i say, 'course you can pal, there in the fridge, I'll pause tv for you while you get one, and get me one while you're there ;)). He struggles himself away from ''I want, I want, I want... a yogurt drink, get me one... I want a yogurt drink... pleeeeeeeese'. I like to reward his efforts to advance his communication skills. I guess if there was only one side to it (win lose) something new would have to evolve. But if there was nothing to be gained, what point would there be? Too much one way, who would leave it the other? or... a place to wipe their shoes... who would grumble! <?> No mileage that way though... a bit of fun on a slippery slope, still, I need your co-operation, and there's fun we need to have... who says there has to be a mutual purpose? So long as we both have one I'd reckon that'd suffice.

Peter St.Cloud

11-07-2007, 03:38 PM

Could I ask why,

a) There is no edit function on this forum..? It makes it hard to update or chaange grammer or spelling mistakes.

and

b) When one posts a reply instead of just going to the end of the thread, it can easily within some crazy tree structure..?

Which makes tracking responses a bloody headache, especially on monster threads like this one...?

This is a nonsense that should have been resolved months ago, so lets have some action on this one and pronto..!

Don

11-07-2007, 03:54 PM

Mr. St. Cloud.

Below the field to enter text is a button labeled "Go Advanced." Selecting it will allow you to preview your post and make any changes before it is posted.

At the top of the page, below where it says "Log Out" is a drop down menu entitled "Display Modes." Select "switch to linear mode" and instead of the threaded mode which shows the relationship of the posts to each other, and which you call a "crazy tree structure," all of the posts will be listed in the order they were posted and long threads such as this one have a multi-page system.

Respectfully, there is no "major" problem with the design of the forum, although if people are unwilling to look around they may have difficulty finding the things they want, even when those things are there.

Terry

11-07-2007, 04:19 PM

Your observation that Peter St,Cloud's judgements are necessarily limited by the extent of his skill cuts both ways. It supports responses to his comments no more than his comments themselves. As might also be said of calling him "a troll". I cannot see name-calling helps an argument. I agree with you that "name calling" is of no help in an argument, but then, who is arguing? We have all reached our decissions about Peter, and are unlikely to change them, but in that same way, please note that "name dropping" has no value in an argument either, and in this case, reduces the believability of Peter's claim to being the best in his field in my opinion...
There is only one way to view someone who comes on gang busters in his first post on a board filled with experts, and questions their opinions without even reading them. As for the claim of name calling, he has been tagged as a "troll" and since language is fluid, and constantly changing, that is not name calling but simply applying the modern definition, and he certainly fits that mark....
Your palid attempt to teach us the original meaning of "troll" falls short in that it is condecending of you to presume, you are the only one who knows this. The difference here, is that we recognise the inevitability of change and you do not, which speaks volumes about you don't you know?
Perhaps you and Peter should start you own board, one that will allow you to persue your own self agrandizment, while you pat each other on the back and comment on how smart you are, all the time knowing it is not true, and you are only bolstering you own ego....

Soren K (existing)

11-07-2007, 04:32 PM

.
Your palid attempt to teach us the original meaning of "troll" falls short in that it is condecending of you to presume, you are the only one who knows this. The difference here, is that we recognise the inevitability of change and you do not, which speaks volumes about you don't you know?
Perhaps you and Peter should start you own board, one that will allow you to persue your own self agrandizment, while you pat each other on the back and comment on how smart you are, all the time knowing it is not true, and you are only bolstering you own ego....

:) Terry, did you realise that was posted over 3 years ago?

Nigel H

11-08-2007, 05:24 AM

skip

11-08-2007, 06:48 AM

I suspect he wasnt looking for anything but more attention, Nigel.

After all he did say he was googling himself, and 'rediscovered' this thread.

Of that I have no doubt.

He did seem somewhat narcisstic to me.

I suspect that is all it is.

cheers,

skip

Docresults

11-08-2007, 07:42 AM

Hi :D

I haven't posted for a while, however browsing the internet I came acorss my thread on this forum.

I can saftly say my opinions have not change about NLP or its approch to ganing rapport.

I also say with some confidence re-reading the posts in reply to my inital comments, that no one was able to convince me my opinons where wrong.

Best Regards

Lord Peter St.Cloud

Hello fellow,

I find it interesting that you think your's or anyone's opinion is right or wrong. Opinion are just that opinions and like a chair says, "Oh no here comes another ..." The fact that you think your opinion is wrong says a lot about you.

You wrote originally...
True Rapport is built on empathy acceptance and being generally interested in a person. Not pretending. In my opinion NLP is a pseudoscience of little use in the real world.

Based on your opinion no one on this list could have really contributed to you in a 'empathy acceptance' and interest in you as a person as I find no evidence (my opinion) of you attempting to establish rapport with the group. I'm still looking for your 'empathic acceptance' or your interest in us as individual people instead of a pseudo-authoritarian attitude.

If this IS the way you show interest in the other person and it is your 'empathic acceptance' I now understand why you have such difficulty with and understanding of Rapport.

To Your Best,
Doc

Connie

11-08-2007, 10:10 AM

he did say he was googling himself

:eek: Eeek! Too much information! I don't want to hear what goes on behind closed doors...

Terry

11-08-2007, 10:12 AM

:) Terry, did you realise that was posted over 3 years ago? Woops,:) Thank the Lord I have always admitted that my skills with the computer were very limited.....

Henrik

11-08-2007, 10:23 AM

Henrik smiling :)

Peter St.Cloud

11-11-2007, 04:42 PM

The problem is that most of the replies to my comments on NLP rapport techniques.

Where by the resident key board jockeys who are nothing more than armchair pundits with little real experience in the field.

At the time I wanted a proper debate on the subject, what I go instead was a load of drivel or the usual “Bandler” psychobabble from the credulous NLP zombies.

A note to Don about this forum.

This forum needs a edit function period, this allows posts to be update and evolve.

So stop flying around on your broomstick and conjure one up.

Best Regards

Lord Peter St.Cloud

Don

11-11-2007, 06:41 PM

The problem is that most of the replies to my comments on NLP rapport techniques.

Not a complete English sentence. And I always had such a high regard for British public schools.

Where by the resident key board jockeys who are nothing more than armchair pundits with little real experience in the field.

An assumption based on lack of data. Usually called "mind reading" among real professionals and something that the same real professionals eschew.

At the time I wanted a proper debate on the subject, what I go instead was a load of drivel or the usual “Bandler” psychobabble from the credulous NLP zombies.

Obviously a false statement. When someone begins by saying what people are successfully doing is "rubbish and ineffective," that person is not looking for a "proper debate." In fact, when a person does that he or she is usually either a) a troll just trying to stir things up or b) a self-centered, egotistical buffoon who claims--usually without any proof--to know more than others and is usually looking for students or obedient worship. Certainly a "lord" is neither a nor b.

A note to Don about this forum.

This forum needs a edit function period, this allows posts to be update and evolve.

So stop flying around on your broomstick and conjure one up.

Best Regards

Lord Peter St.Cloud

The system allows anyone to completely view their post and make corrections and changes--an edit function--before they make the post available. It prevents any poster from looking foolish for doing ignorant things such as, say, writing something that is grammatically incorrect and doesn't even make a sentence or make statements than any person can see are incorrect and/or without any form of logic. We invite all posters to use the edit function.

A function that lets people come back days, weeks, or longer to change their posts and remove any embarrassing previous comments doesn't allow for evolution as you claim. Rather, it allows for cover-up and prevents other posters from seeing someone evolve.

If someone would like to have a post changed or deleted after they have made it, they are invited to PM either Skip or myself and request it. I would hope that knowing that weeks, month, or years later, people seeing their own idiocy and not being able to cover it up, will encourage posters to think before submitting a post.

Regrettably, I am just a moderator, not the forum owner. Should you wish to request a change in the software, I would suggest contacting DrMattJames, who has information on the nature of the software running this forum as he pays for it.