Could you explain?

[Unregistered]

I recently met with an NLP practitioner to overcome a phobia. Part of the session included Time Line Therapy. "My unconscious mind" was asked to remember my first episode of fear: before, during or after my birth. Of course, my conscious mind didn't seem understand the question, although an answer did "pop into my head" immediately after hearing the question. The practitioner told me that the first thing that came to mind was my unconscious mind's answer. The word "before" was what I came up with. I was asked how many generations ago? and again the number that "popped into my head" was 2. What does all that mean? Does that have to do with my ancestors 2 generations ago...or does it have to do with "my" past lives.
If my first episode of fear was 2 generations ago, let's say my grandfather as an example, how can I release a fear that originated with someone else? Furthermore, if the 2 generations ago was in reference to a "past life", then that is also difficult for me to explain because I don't believe in reincarnation. After the session, I should have discussed these concerns/questions with my practitioner ; but I didn't because I didn't want to appear negative or in any way jeopardize the session's effectiveness. I wanted to be very open about the process...because I want it to work..and I want to do everything in my power to overcome my phobia. Thanks for reading.

[skip]

So was the session a success?

You should know by now.

skip

[Unregistered]

I don't feel it was a success. The fear is horseback riding. After the session, I was supposed to look forward to it....to make arrangements to do a trail ride. But I still am very fearful; almost to the point of dreading it. I could live my life without horseback riding....but it would be nice to not be scared of it....so I could participate in activities with friends. The NLP practitioner said after the session, I'd look forward to trying it....that I may be a little nervous, but that I wouldn't have an irrational fear of it anymore. I am still terrified to try it. I don't feel "cured", if that's what you mean.

[Unregistered]

Sorry to have used the word "cure" above. I just read (at Merlin's suggestion) the FAQ's on Hypnotism (http://s91495364.onlinehome.us/FAQ.htm) and learned that use of the word cure is inappropriate above.

[skip]

Dear Guest,

I suspected as much. This NLPer didnt check his work, or there would have been no doubt, on either your or their part.

Go back and request either what you paid for or your money back. If this person cant then get your money back and seek help elsewhere.

Incidentally, having respect for horses, and horse back riding is a healthy thing. I agree that having an irrational fear isnt a good thing, but a certain level of fear is a good thing. My experience with horses is that they are big, powerful, and none too smart. And in a panic they can do serious damage without being aware of the puny human they just stepped on, or leaned on. So a careful, watchful awareness is a good thing. It doesnt have to be fear.

Something you might find works well, is a trip to www.emofree.com (http://www.emofree.com/)

There you will find a free e-book. Download it and follow the instructions exactly, no matter if they seem silly to you or not. This can reduce your fear level about horse back riding down to zero, if you like; it wont replace it with desire, or thrilled anticipation, but it will reduce the anxiety to nil, but I wouldnt go all the way to nil, I would keep a sleight edge, you do want to respect the size and power. Eh?

Then you can use the fun you do have riding, and being outdoors and with your friends to set the anticipation level to desire, or fun, or extasay!

skip

[Merlin]

I am also trained in Timeline therapy, which is quite different than the timeline work often done by NLPers.

The work obviously was incomplete!

As Skip said, you should get what you pay for. Either the work should be completed, or a refund given :)

[Terry]

I happen to have stumbled on this thread just after posting on another, and reffering to the need for the practitoner not to impose their beliefs on the client.
It would seem to me, that you had this experience, done in a disguised manner.
To ask a client to decide whether a situation developed in this life or in a past life, as was done to you, is a direct suggestion that past lives are a fact. Little wonder you were confused if you have no such belief. I agree that you should obtain a refund, and perhaps let it be known that you object to having the therapists beliefs imposed on you without your consent.......Terry.

[wsblack999]

Sounds like shoddy work to me.

Firstly let me point out that we are not talking about "truth" or "reality". We are just talking about the Unconscious mind's "representation" of information. The UCM is symbolic, just because your UCM gave you an answer does not mean that past lives exist. All it means is that your UCM has stored this information and allowed it to be accessed in this way.

When I first used TLT to release Anger, I went back 47 generations in my timeline. Does this mean I was working on an event over 1,000 years old? No. But I did suddenly realise that anger was very well established in my family and my parents families and their parents families, etc.

It was symbolic. Nothing more.

I should have discussed these concerns/questions with my practitioner ; but I didn't because I didn't want to appear negative or in any way jeopardize the session's effectiveness. I wanted to be very open about the process...because I want it to work..and I want to do everything in my power to overcome my phobia.

It is important that you tell the complete truth in any theraputic session. If you find that you cannot then you should be working with a different practitioner. Contact the practitioner and give them the opportunity to complete the work.

Terry:
I agree that you should obtain a refund, and perhaps let it be known that you object to having the therapists beliefs imposed on you without your consent.......

I don't think that anyone is imposing their beliefs. The questions asked should have gone along these lines:
1) "...if you were to know was it before, during or after your birth?" >> BEFORE.
2) ".. was it past life or genealogical?" >> GENEALOGICAL.
3) "How many generations?" TWO.

After the answer to the first question, what other options are there? What would your belief's have you ask next?

Remember that we are talking symbolisim, not reality.

Regards,
David

[Tranceaholic]

From what you have said it seems like the practitioner wasn't quite thorough enough. They should have ensured that you were convinced that the phobia was gone before you left their office & followed up with you on your progress.

Sometimes people make mistakes. I had my car repaired recently & the mechanic who I know is very experienced failed to do a final check & the car still exhibited a problem. When I took it back he was more than happy to fix his mistake & now my car is great.

Time Line Therapy does work & it will release your unreasonable fear of horseback riding when completed properly.

I would recomend that you call the practitioner & advise them that it was unsuccessful & you would like them to either resolve the issue or refund your money.

Good luck

[habituallyhypnoidal]

I agree with most of the folks posting here. The work was incomplete and the mechanic's analogy is a good one. Often times a mechanic will check what he thinks is the problem based on the symptoms and experience and only after you drive it around a while do you realize that it was something other than, say the spark plugs. It doesn't neccessarily mean it was a bad mechanic, just that one thing has been ruled out.

Of course, he could be a lousy therapist too. Heck if I know... I wasn't there.

There was certainly a presupposition that was inappropriate. To ask if it was from the present or a past life does presuppose that such things exist (genetic memory or past lives). There is social pressure to make a therapist happy sometimes which can instigate a subconscious response not because it is correct but because the individual wants (subconsciously) to please the therapist.

When Irene Hickman (a pioneer in past-life therapy) began her explorations she simply said (within hypnosis) "go to the moment the problem first began". It is a more ethical way to handle it because you do not impose your beliefs on people. It is a more logical way of doing it because you are not leading them as strongly towards a social-pressure motivated response. And by doing this Dr. Hickman found numerous past-life experiences by accident to her own surprise (she didn't believe in them initially). Her book "Mind Probe Hypnosis" is good reading if you are into that kind of thing.

Personally, I don't think regression is neccessary for most phobias. To quote Bandler "I don't believe in cause and effect." Otherwise everyone who was introduced to the same stimulus would have exactly the same response.

And if you study Bandler's more advanced teachings you'll find he doesn't just do time line therapy or just do the phobia cure... he mixes and matches... he caters his techniques to the needs of the individual and just the one kind of therapy 'aint gonna do it a lot of the time. Nor is one session always going to do it. Often there is positive intention (secondary gain) that isn't easy to spot at first glance. Even if you do an ecological check, your "cure" may be situational -- like Bandler's hologram analogy -- with different "reference lasers" (different matrix of stimulus) you can have a different set of responses including a possible recurrance of the problem.

I don't know whether your therapist was a good one or not. But I agree that if you didn't feel completely comfortable being completely honest with him then find someone else. As for a refund, his time is valuable and if he gave you his best effort I would not ask for a refund unless you can refund his time to him. NLP is not an exact science but an art and practitioners sculpt to the best of their abilities.

- LV

[TaffyE]

I disagree that asking if the origin is before during or after birth is an inappropriate presupposition.
It covers all possibilities and so allows the clients unconscious mind to use the symbolism it feels appropriate.

[MJ Musayyeb]

if u train a monkey to drive a car, would u be a passenger?
This is exactly what u get with those people who got a 3-day training in NLP... they think they have the tools, but they r unable to deliver...
Strange how u would seek help from such people...
Have u ever checked who Bandler is? or, have u ever read any of his old books (where he suggests body integration to cure Multiple Personality disorders)?... if u haven't, then PLEASE DO... that is more than a solid proof that the guy is an idiot... he does not know pits about the human psych... but he can make money out of u...
He wrote tens of books about Milton Erickson... and Erickson said about him, "I concentrate on the personal side of the relationship in therapy, He concentrates on the material side of it"... Erickson also said, "he thinks he has me in a nutshell, and all he has is a nutshell"...
He wrote tens of books about the guy, and he only saw him for no more than an hour...
No accredited academic institution takes his methods seriously... so, all Bandler is left with is to seek partners among stage hypnotists (buffoons)... he found one, Paul Mc Kenna...
Now u sought help from a monkey with a 3-day training by a buffoon... and u became a passenger to that monkey who itself is lost...

[TaffyE]

MJ Musayyeb,

Seems like you have formed an opinion from just reading some books, and not experiencing it.

But then you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong I may think it is

[thoradh]

I agree with you that If I trained a monkey to drive I car in three days, that I would not be sitting in the passenger seat, and that's a good thing, cos I don't train monkeys.

I find that when i train humans, they respond much quicker. I know many car trainers that spend a lot less than 3 days training learner drivers and yet we allow them out on the roads with this deadly weapon without getting a licence first... (Yes, a car is a deadly weapon)

At least in the US you have to get a licence before you can legally carry a gun. So that's a fact, yes.. I agree. and what is more I know that if you have an undeniable positive expereince in your life and you model the process and structure that resulted in the result you personally experienced, then I believe you are entitled to make money from training other people on the same principle.

Bandler did the same. Bandler Modeled Erickson. Erickson was the foremost Hypnotherapist for approx 50 years. Bandler modelled him and stood on the shoulders of this giant. I take off my hat to a genius that modelled a genius.

Regards.

T

[Unregistered]

The practitioner told me that the first thing that came to mind was my unconscious mind's answer. The word "before" was what I came up with. I was asked how many generations ago? and again the number that "popped into my head" was 2. What does all that mean?

It means you were asked to fill in answers and, in the spirit of self discovery, did so. Just because you filled in the blanks don't think for a moment you gave better than random answers. You have no past life memories to remember. There's simply no coding for it within the DNA from which your mother and father's single cell and sperm become the physical you. Absolutely none at all. Sorry.

[Keith Johnson]

I have successfully used self hypnosis and medication in clearing my mind of voices. It seems to be a powerful tool largely unused by psychiatrists. By tailoring the hypnosis instructions to the patients symptoms, a bit like programming a computer for specific results, I think a wider group of people could be helped. Psychiatrists do not even give their patients instruction in hypnosis. See www.doyouhearvoices.co.uk

[Makani]

Dear Guest:

Time Line Therapy is such a great tool when carefully used. Perhaps not all of your session is in your post, and I'm not judging your NLP'er, but based upon what you shared, IMO;

1. A well-trained therapist would have addressed the possible answers and the possible symbolism of TLT before you entered the process.

2. They would have checked for the "release" by future pacing you on your time line....if the fear was still present (and good rapport would have made it easy for you to say "yes"), they would have re-evaluated and applied other skills for a better outcome.

3. Finally, an experienced therapist would have noticed physiological markers or otherwise picked up on the less than desired result. A simple enough question to ask is, "Are we done?" I always ask at least twice even when I know it's true as it serves to reinforce the client's positive outcome as clearly defined by them in the beginning of the session.

I agree with part of the post that three days does not a therapist make....in anything. Check for the person's training, experience and references. It makes a difference just as it does in psychology, medicine and auto mechanics.

Glad you had this forum to sort it out and I do hope you stay open to the technique.

[beachrose]

Re: before / during / after...

Since I don't believe in reincarnation either, I just took 'before' to mean 'in the womb.'

I think a simple query to clarify would be helpful, before assuming the therapist meant 'past lives'. Also, a second session would be helpful.

Also, I ride a lot, and I agree, a healthy respect for safety is in order. However, I find positive inner-phrasing helps to keep relaxed and focused with less distraction from rational fear... and maximize fun!

[magicgirl]

Hi

I am a Master Time Line Therapy Practitioner and when using Time Line Therapy the questions that a competent practitioner should ask is

Was the first event before during or after birth

If the person says before the practioner then says - in the womb or before, if before the womb, then ask past life or geneologically

There is no way for us to be able to prove whether past lives exist or not - they may be true or they may just be a symbol that the unconcious mind presents at the time to have the problem disappear - this is what the practitoner should say to the client if they ask / are concerned etc

At at the end of the day if the clients gets the result - thats what matters

I hope this has clarfied things for you?

[skip]

I dont want to make people angry ....

BUT

When someone asks, "Did this occurr before or after you were born?", or some variation of that, you DID introduce (read install) prebirth experience.

Now it isnt my place, to indicate my belief, one way or another. and by offering prebirth as an alternative, you have indicated to the client that it is a possibility. AND that is not your place to so do.

Most hypnotists KNOW that presupposition is one of the most effective tools we have.

To install it, without realizing it, is sloppy.

To install it, without regard to the persons personal beliefs, is invasive.

Clean language people.

You have absolutely no need to know when it occurred, all you need to know is whether or not the operson can go back to that point. If they can, you can work from there, irregardless of where it is relative to anywhere else, and pre/post birth need never be mentioned.

skip

[Don]

As I recall from my training in TLT, the procedure is to mention that memories of the past may be genetic or past lives. Then, when taking them back, you ask how far back (without installing concepts of past life--you've already discussed possibilities in the pretalk), and if they say 150 years you are supposed to ask if this is a genetic memory or a past life (either is okay).

Or did I miss something?

[Simple Guy]

Don and Skip,

I would view a general practice of saying "memories of the past may be
genetic or past lives" as imposing a viewpoint, at times. I avoid
this by saying something to the effect of: "For purposes of this time line
process, see the timeline as beginning at the moment you were born..."

[magicgirl]

The langauge is clean and the script I use and have been trained in is the one created by Tad James and it says before, during or after you birth - you go with the first thing that comes to mind, if before birth we ask in the womb or before - at every point the language is clean and at no point is anyone suggesting anything - the purpose is to simply get the answers from the persons Unconcious Mind - what ever that may be

[coyotekin]

After reading this thread over I have come to the conclusion that many, if not all, of the posters try to be sensitive to the beliefs and feelings of their patients. Nonetheless there seems to be quite a few people assuming that people are trying to impose their views on another. I think we can all agree, at least I would hope, that those practicing, amongst the posters here, try to be careful.

Now the question I have is if you asked something general dealing with the time line and gave the option to go beyond that patient's lifespan and the patient took the option of their own free will are you in fact imposing your own views? After all, if the patient truly did not believe it was possible to go before they were born wouldn't they subconsciously decide that it wasn't possible?

[TaffyE]

My take on "before during or after your birth" is covering all possibilities with a metaphore, thus allowing the unconscious to use which one it choses for the benefit for the client.
After all, most of it is metaphorical is it not?

[Simple Guy]

Coyotekin,

"Now the question I have is if you asked something general dealing with the time line and gave the option to go beyond that patient's lifespan and the patient took the option of their own free will are you in fact imposing your own views? After all, if the patient truly did not believe it was possible to go before they were born wouldn't they subconsciously decide that it wasn't possible?"

It would depend if that "option" were given in a leading manner, as would be
the case if going "beyond the patient's lifespan" were presented as a reality-
based presupposition (that there are things beyond this life and that they are
indeed accessible). There is an ethical responsibility to not inject our own
personal beliefs onto those we work with, be they religious, philosophical
or those dealing with acceptance or rejection of the idea of reincarnation.
Your question as to whether a client would "subconsciously decide that
it wasn't possible," is a good one. The answer to this would vary. What
shouldn't vary is the sanctity of each person deciding for themselves
on their own views of such matters and that "clean language," ethics and
consideration provide a boundary so that therapists don't tread upon it.

[Merlin]

Hi Skip,

They are reguritating the script from the Time Line Therapy training.

Good catch. The language is not 'clean'.

I use a modified 'script' myself. Since I don't personally believe in 'past life' I prefer a more clean method which does not inject the possibility but does not preclude the possibilities.

Whether I believe in it or not, whether the client believes in it (consciously) or not, they sometimes go there.

[Terry (existing)]

To add to what has already been said, I must ask you a question. Since the subconcious does not have the abiltiy to think, how could it make such a decission? The client might decide that this was abuse, and come out of the trance, or go along with the suggestion using that wonderful skill, the imagination. This later is the most likely, though the former would seem to be a result of well established religious beliefs. In either case, it is indeed abuse to suggest anything that might be against the beliefs of the client, and is NOT clean language to which they have the right.....

[skip]

Magic girl,

Im not requesting that you stop saying it that way.

And I dont care if Jesus Christ himself taught it to you this way. It is still an installation of a belief.

If that's your purpose fine, If it isnt your purpose, then at least know you are doing it.

If it is stated as you indicate, the language isnt clean, it is actually intorducing the past life concept into the mix.

Now that doesnt make you a bad person, or mean, or unhelpful.

I have yet to meet anyone who is able to be totally clean in their language, although the "grovian clean language" (try google) people do make the attempt.

I believe it is important as a hypnotist to understand what you are saying, and especially, what you are installing, in someone's mind. And as hypnotists we have a unique understanding of the power of languaging.

From a process point of view what is the difference between asking:

When did you stop molesting children?

and

Was it in your current or a past life?

skip

[magicgirl]

Hi Skip

Thanks for sharing your opinions - in my opinon I do not see how askign a question can possibly install something?

As the practitioner you are working with the persons UM and simply asking, when was it, before, during or after - wanting whatever unconious response comes out - so it is simply a question

Saying to someone "IT WAS IN A PAST LIFE, WASNT IT" is a suggestion - I can understand - but that is not what the script says or how I read it.

I am very aware of the power of suggestion and also that you cannot go against a persons values , beliefs etc ie make someone do something that they don;t want to

So maybe you could please explain to me how you see asking the question = a suggestion so as I can better understand your point of view?

[Terry (existing)]

Magic, you have been trained in a certain manner, and react acordingly when you read something that challenges that training. This is normal, but not the reaction that allows for growth. If you choose to disagree with someone, that is fine, you have that right, however consider first, and then decide. You have read from many of the highly skilled on this board, and it seems there is reasonable concensus, so surely it is worth consideration is it not? We are speaking of clean language, and as Skip so rightly points out, we are careless in our speech and our writing, so often don't notice that our speech or writing is unclean. If you choose to discount what other say, that's fine by the rest of us, but for your own sake, give due consideration to source, before coming to a conclusion. Language is our most important tool, and must be as perfect as we can make it. Therefor, if there is the slightest doubt that a client might misunderstand us, it is in the interest of both that you should rephrase. If I as a skilled practitioner, using language with care for many years, find a certain phrase is going to lead me to a certain conclusion, then surely it is likely to do the same for someone less skilled or practised in language don't you think? By the way, the subconcious doesn't think, so is much more likely to accept what you program than not.

[Merlin]

Magicgirl,

>when was it, before, during or after...

That is not the problem (with the language)

It's the following word(s) which aren't *clean*
When you introduce 'when was it, before, during or after' **birth**
you are introducing a possibility of before birth.
If the person's map had no concept of the possibility of before birth, you just introduced that possibility by your words.

>Saying to someone "IT WAS IN A PAST LIFE, WASNT IT" is a suggestion

Yes. very good.
That certainly implies it was a past life.
The other wording >when was it, before, during or after birth
does not suggest that it is before birth, but it does suggest the possibility of before birth which may not have been considered a possibility before.

>I am very aware of the power of suggestion

Good :)

>and also that you cannot go against a persons values , beliefs etc ie make someone do something that they don;t want to

Certainly you can.
That's what hypnosis is all about.
Else why use the tool?

Now it is commonly taught that you cannot get someone to >go against a persons values , beliefs etc ie make someone do something that they don;t want to

but it simply isn't true.

[Charlie]

I am a Master Time Line Therapy Practitioner and when using Time Line Therapy the questions that a competent practitioner should ask is

Was the first event before during or after birth

If the person says before the practioner then says - in the womb or before, if before the womb, then ask past life or geneologically



Magicgirl,

I'm not a master of anything, but isn't the word "OR" a presupposition?

When you say "Was the first event before, during, or after birth", three possibilities are being introduced, even if they weren't there previously.

Possibility 1 = An event before
Possibility 2 = An event during
Possibility 3 = An event after

In the question "Was the first event before, during, or after birth", there is a hidden "OR" between the words "Before" & "During", and a spoken "OR" between the words "During" & "After".

These 2 "OR"s imply the existence of 3 possibilities, even if they weren't there previously.

Do you understand presuppositions a little bit, quite a lot, OR a considerable amount?

Now. That was just my 3 Cents. ;)

:)

Charlie.

p.s., and now I think of it, the words "Before", "During", "After", are themselves presuppositions, are they not?

BEFORE writing this post, I didn't fully realise that DURING it's construction, I would subsequently notice that AFTER I added a p.s. I would have continued to learn even more about the use of presuppositions.

OR maybe I did.

:D

[Don]

Hi Skip

Thanks for sharing your opinions - in my opinon I do not see how askign a question can possibly install something?



Hi, Magicgirl.

Using questions is not only frequently used to install limiting concepts, but it has been taught to people for many decades before the concept of NLP was created.

In the sales world, it is known as a "forced-choice" question. For example, if I'm selling cars, a forced-choice question might be, "do you want that in red or in blue?" By asking the question I do not give you the option of anything else, and the number of people who select one color as a way of beginning the purchase process (known as a "trial close") is surprisingly large.

Suggestion and the effects of suggestion does not begin when a person is hypnotized or when you or I begin some sort of therapeutic modality.

It begins when you say, "Hello!"

[TaffyE]

So how about giving some example(s) of "clean" language to cover the intention of the before during or after. Please.

[magicgirl]

Hi everyone and thanks for taking the time to reply - ofcourse I am open to other peoples opinons, thoughts etc and at the end of the day I am also entitled to my own - especially as it only seems to be people who I have been discussing this with here who share these opinons - and thats great - taking on board P=P etc etc then if I believe the words to simply be questions without any way of installation then that is what I believe will happen - and I am not alone in that, plus I and many others beleive that you cannot use hypnosis to do against anyones values, beleifs etc etc

So in your opinon by saying is it x, y or z you feel that this can introduce the concept of it being z when previously this wasn't an option for the person - I disagree and think that if the answer is z then that is what the UM will procude - if not by asking the question - will not make that happen.

This is ofcourse simply my experience and I have never had an experiemce where anyone has said to me that things were suggested to them. So if there is no way you would ever go to a football match for example is it doesn't interest you etc etc - woudl someone asking you to go suddenly install the beleif that you want to go?I don;t think so

No you may all disagree with all that I have said and thats fine - all I can say - is that this works for me and the many other 100's of people who I know who have both been trained in a similar way and hold the same beliefs. Yes words, questions are very powerful and also are the beleifs that we hold as practtioners and what we project out

[skip]

When did this occurr?

Point to the place on the time line where this happened?

As I move my hand back along the time line, indicate (you also get an unconscious response) where this event occurred.

The subject of present life, pre/post natal, or previous life need never even come up.

In fact knowing the 'content' of "when" is actually irrelevent.

The only relevent thing is that the person can 'go back' to the event, and sometimes relative time frames such as before this occurred, or after that event, or during ...

skip

[skip]

Hi Magicgirl,

I am reading your thoughts and because you come across as someone who really is consientious, and who really cares about how they affect peoples lives, I want to give this one more shot at reaching an understanding.

Becaue I believe if you fully understood what I have so far inadequately expressed to you, I am confident you would get an 'ah ha' moment.

I love those, dont you?

Lets start at a beginning.

How many people know they have a time line?

Not very many. And when you introduce the concept, you have, in effect, installed a belief. Now I dont know if I really had a time line, before I ever heard of it, but I do know, I have had one ever since I learned about it. How about you?

People are learning all the time. People learn every time. What are you treaching?

I feel sure, or at least I hope, when you learned time line, that your instructor was very careful to point out, that you make no indication whatsoever how the time line might be arranged. That you must let the client describe the initial arrangement?

Am I right? Why do you suppose this is important?

Ill bet they said something like, "If you describe the arrangement of the time line, before the client does, even just to give an example you will affect the way they view theirs. You want to elicit, cleanly, their time line."

Tad James on page 29 of "Time Line Therapy" elicits it, simply, cleanly. "First I'd like you to think of something that happened in the past and notice from what direction it came. And now Id like you to think of some thats going to happen in the fiture and notice from what direction it came to you."

Then on page 30 in the transcript he wasnt so clean.

Tad: "Yea, From what direction did that come to you?"

Dan: "Here."

Tad: "Good, is that behind you?"

Dan: "No on the side of me."

Tad introduced "behind", fortunately Dan corrected him. Not everyone will. Some will shift the time line to coincide with what they think is being suggested, just as they do, when you deliberately ask them to rearrange their line.

Now that probably sounds picky. Especially when you are dubious about it's effectiveness to begin with.

I can understand that.

You said, "I disagree and think that if the answer is z then that is what the UM will procude - if not by asking the question - will not make that happen."

I agree with you that there is some wisdom that is basic to the UM. I also know that it isnt pervasive, because if it were, no one would indulge in any destructive habits. We would have no obesity, no smoking, no compulsive behavior, no co dependance, no self sabatoge, etc, and incidentally, no need for hypnosis.

Dont put your faith in something that doesnt deserve it.

Now I know that you are aware of instances, in the past, where false memories were unwittingly implanted, by people who were actually searching for the truth. I know that you are knoweledgable of the power of presupposition. I know that you are framiliar with the use of binds and how powerfully they act hypnotically.

My question would be, "Knowing this, what, if any, is the ethical responsibility, of a hypnotist, when interacting with a client?"

Now I realize that you may not agree that these things are as powerful as I am indicating. And that is your perrogative It is difficult for me to understand how someone can believe in the power and effectiveness of what they do, and simultaneously disbelieve that the very hypnotic elements, which are the building blocks of what they do, are powerful in and of themselves.

As you have said, it is your choice.

I wish you well.

skip

[magicgirl]

Hi Skip

I agree about knowing the content of when isn't important - for the process to work the person simply needs to know the root cause - coming from their UM - so they can go to that event, be aware of the emotion, get the learnings and so let the emotion go

What ever root is presented to enable the person to get the result is perfect for them - whether its past life, geneological, in the womb etc etc

[Simple Guy]

Hi Magicgirl,

That the person "get the result is perfect for them," in disregard
of inadvertent installation of beliefs that they had not sought, isn't a very
perfect or ethical outcome. Would you want someone to decide for you,
if roles were reversed, even if you were able "to get the result?"

[magicgirl]

Hi Simple Guy

It appears that I am going to continue to disagree with all here - and thats ok - as I do not see that I have made any decision for anyone - I have asked them a question - they give me an answer - I suspend my own beliefs on whether I think that there are past lifes etc - because what matters is that the client get the result and I truly believe that their UM will present which ever root cause necessary to do that

[Terry (existing)]

Hi Simple Guy

It appears that I am going to continue to disagree with all here - and thats ok - as I do not see that I have made any decision for anyone - I have asked them a question - they give me an answer - I suspend my own beliefs on whether I think that there are past lifes etc - because what matters is that the client get the result and I truly believe that their UM will present which ever root cause necessary to do that You know girl, the skills and knowledge available on this board is truly fabulous, so when asking a question, one is likely to get a variety of replies, from which you can sift what seems right for you, and leave out the rest. We support that in all our visitors, but there is one thing we don't have any control over, and that is your reasons for acceptance or rejection. That is truly a matter for you to decide. If you have poor reading skills, this may affect your decissions. If you have deeply rooted feelings about something, that also will affect your decisssions. On the other hand, if you choose to stick with a previous thought in spite of finding that the majority of replies suggest it is wrong, then I suggest you have a serious problem with learning to grow. Now I am not saying what we say should be accepted without thought, that also would be foolish, but I am saying, if we all agree on something, there must be something worthy of consideration in what we say, or if not, why are you here?

[magicgirl]

The reason I am here - is more to view then to post to be honest as I do tend to find peoples opinons differ here then in other forums I visit and thats great - the reason why I chose to reject is because it is only on here that I have heard these opinons - no where else - so in my opinon people are entitled to pick and chose whatever information they wish

I have read carefully and considered everyones opinons and at the end of the day I cannot agree with it - and that is my choice - this does not hinder my growth what so ever.

I play at P=P 110% so for me it can only be taken as suggestion if the practiioner projects that - maybe I play this frame more than others. So if you only beleive and therefore project certain things are possibly and hold that belief this is what will happen

Maybe thats why, everyone I normally mix with - agrees with me - although they may not visit here.

[TaffyE]

Always being prepared to see another's point of view, I tried Skip's suggestion about clean language, without a lot of success.
To save typing the whole thing out again (it's 3.35am here in Oz), see my post in Other Discussions in reply to Skip's post

[Merlin]

Taffy,

JAT,
What if you were to ask: Before During or After your first birthday?

If it's before, just ask how far back.
It's open ended, yet doesn't imply the possibility of a past life.

[Robert H]

magic,

hi,

I have several tape sets of Tad teaching the Timeline questioning process/script that uses before, during or after.

"If you were to know the root cause, source event, which when completely disconnected, emotionally balanced or energetically flattened, will cause this issue you've had to disappear, or dissolve, or vanish as ever having been an issue for you, if you were to know was it before, during or after your birth, etc." I slightly alter the wording in a way that adds to the presupposition compared to the way Tad teaches it / developed it.

What I put in bold is the main assumption that is intentionally being installed, or that a practioner has the opportunity to install when they ask this question. What this does is present the internal representation of the event being resolved 3 times, and the issue being either in the past or being totally resolved 5 times. Just kind of sneaks this in, and by the way this is one of the places where the distinction between hypnosis, and NLP sort of begins to blurs. and before the client realizes it we are back to the issue of when. But now its not just the when of the root cause. It's the when of the root cause that once we fiddle with it a bit will cause the problem to disappear.

I haven't ever tried this...but I think it would be interesting to take a client, and ask the question both ways...

1) what is the root cause of the event, if you knew was it before, during or after your birth?

do some pattern interrupt but make a note of the clients previous answer.

2) then ask the "OK, NOW, (by the way I say that one a lot too during therapies I do) so OK, NOW, If you were to know, at the unconcious level of your mind, the root cause, source event, which when completely disconnected, emotionally balanced or energetically flattened, will now cause this issue that you've had, so far, for some time up until today, to actually disappear, or dissolve, or even to just vanish...poof... as ever having been an issue for you, and if you were to know was it before, during or after your birth" version of the question.

when I say disappear, dissolve, and vanish ...poof I also mark these out with with sounds that sound like that, and also make hand gestures that kind of go with it.

There's another level of suggestion here being installed too ....which is that of causing it to happen (italicized).

I wonder if they would give the same event? Interesting, isn't it?

Now, regardless of whether the same event or a new one comes up. What's really important here, from my point of view anyway, is that we set up the timeline work we are about to do. In some cases, for events with only a small amount of charge....using similar language to what I did in the above examples will in and of itself cause the event, and the issue to disappear. This is rare, but can happen.

This is called a set up. It's also called covert hypnosis. I don't care what the clients answer to the question is. If they answer the question, the odds are MUCH higher the event will easily resolve, and that that will cause the whole enchilada to resolve.

If you just say "if your unconscious mind could tell you, was the root cause, the source event, before, during, or after your birth?" That does NOT have the same impact. Tad even explicitly says this in his tapes.

The one above in bold starts to set up that the internal representation of the event being resolved, and the whole problem being gone.

The cause - effect belief being installed is that when/if the event - whenver it was that the unconscious mind brings up in answering the question is disconnected, the entire issue will resolve.

as to the degree that the before, during or after piece is information gathering vs installation is debatable. My take is that part is more information gathering.

Connirae Andreas in a seminar on language patterns said that every language pattern (including this one) is simultaneously information gathering and installation.

The other major presupposition installed is that of cause - effect of past to present to future. Which is actually only true to a limited extent in reality, but extremely useful, even necessary as a foundational frame when doing timeline. By a limited extent I mean it is true to the extent that newtonian causality is true. And there is a large extent to which that is true.

Then after all the glunk is cleaned up from the past, and we move into programming the future....the past ->now->future cause effect presuppostion still serves... I decide it now -> it happens in the future.

the shift here is the locus of control or the source shifts from being outside - in ( the events to ones mind reactively) to inside - out. (that is from ones mind to the world proactively. )

however, in terms of human living and destiny....almost anything can be changed by a decision. Oprah Winfrey had a horrible childhood by almost anyone's standards. Look where she is now. This is an example of the past does not equal the future.

There is an irony of sorts here.....by utilizing the metaphor of timeline we are freeing people from their internal anchors to their representations of the past...and thus empowering them to actualize the higher truth that the past does not control the future except as we choose for it to.

Robert ;)

[magicgirl]

Well said Robert!!!

[TaffyE]

Yes, nicely put

[Simple Guy]

Robert,

Thank you for this quality post.

[Nigel H]

Wow - some lengthy and interesting threads posted here on the subject of installation of beliefs and Time Line Therapy(TM).

Firstly, anyone trained in Time Line Therapy(TM) and using it is required to use Tad James' scripting.

Secondly - when eliciting the Root Cause from them - to go back along their Time Line to, we are asking their UM to bring out the relevant time that they need to go to for the problem to disappear. Hence the scripting prior as follows:

'Is it alright for your unconscious mind for you to release this [emotion] today and for you to be aware of it consciously?'

Only when you get a congruent 'yes' would you continue.

'What is the root cause of this problem, the first event which when disconnected will cause the problem to disappear?'
'If you were to know, was it before, during or after your birth?'

All of Tad's script was used because of the presuppositions required to work effectively. Tad has a quote which I rather like -
"What is the question that I can ask, which by the very nature of the presuppositions in the question itself will cause the client to make the greatest amount of change, by having to accept the presuppositions inherent in the question?"

Clearly he is well aware of the impact of presuppositions in language.

As mentioned above, the UM works with metaphor and imagery, so we are not saying that the person has to 'consciously' believe in past lives, more-over that if THAT time is when the persons UM is prompting them to go to, to 'cause the problem to disappear' then that is what you use.

Note - that at the time of asking the question, they are not yet floating above their time line [which is generally done eyes closed] so pointing them where to go would be difficult.

I do accept the points made about installation and if someone has a major issue with past lives then it needs to be made clear that it could simply be the UM using metaphor in it's workings.

Doing it this way works - and if someone decided not to go back to the past life on their time line, due to their belief - then the emotion/decision would likely not release at that point and they can THEN be asked to return to the VERY FIRST EVENT without having to specify, just trusting their UM to take them there.

The Test and Future pace will allow the client to experience conscious/unconscious integration of their emotion/decision having gone which further helps the process. When handled correctly it can avoid any past life belief issues getting in the way. There are many people who consciously believe one thing, yet their UM has other beliefs that they are often unaware of - otherwise there would be little worth in handling any beliefs with the use of hypnosis, TLT or anything else to address their unconscious function. [e.g many smoke with the conscious knowledge that it is unhealthy etc etc, yet they 'cannot' give up without the unconscious mind being addressed to handle any secondary gain and other factors/beliefs leading to their desire to smoke].

I am sure the debate will go on ...............!!

Cheers all

Nig

[Don]

I have had the honor of meeting Tad many times, as well as taking workshops with him, including the basic TLT workshop.

However, I must disagree with one thing:

Anyone can do TLT. They can use any script they want. They do not have to use Dr. James' scripting.

However, if they are not trained by Dr. James or an approved instructor, and if they are not certified to practice, they cannot legally call it Time Line Therapy or advertise it as such. They could call it "Uncle Seymour's Mystical Magical Mystery Time Tour Therapy" and be fine.

The concept of "Parts Therapy" is pretty well know. A few months ago I studied a book which presented the entire theory and a non-hypnotic means of doing the therapy, but gave it a different name.

[Poodle]

Please note post on Spirit Guides. Someone is teaching NLP and combining it with energy/spirits. We know this is a gross perversion of NLP. It is simply amazing what the public will fall for -- P.T. Barnum had a point - a sucker is born every minute; however, it would seem from the post it is being taught in the name of NLP. I assume since no one "owns" NLP per se, all is fair game whereas TLT is a registered name. As for me, myself and I, I prefer to learn the accepted models that were created by the creators of NLP or TLT.


Lord love a duck!! Pood

[Nigel H]

Thanks Don - my point exactly.

Those treating someone with Time Line Therapy and calling it as such are to use Tad's scripting.

So, those of us who are trained accordingly are happy to do both - (a) call it TLT and (b) use the script that we know works, regardless of certain other views on the cleanliness of a minor part of the language.


Re. your point on anyone doing TLT ..
You could almost say that anyone can do Mcdonalds..... which whilst I am not advocating as a quality product, it works as it is for a reason and not anyone making burgers will necessarily be as succesful.

Sure - Time Line methodolgy and theory was around long before Tad established his Trademarked method and he is not unique, in that others use the concept of the time line in their hypnotic work.

Sometimes it is simply enough to accept that using something works. I accept that there is a grey area (as evidenced by the various opinions on this thread) around the cleanliness of part of the language - and it works anyway - plus in the majority of cases, the issue of past lives causing a material concern is not relevant.

Sometimes it is possible to make too much of a small issue and whilst it has made interesting discussion, I wonder if we are all spending too much time haggling over it!!

Cheers for now.

Nig

[Poodle]

I just say "in the subconscious mind there is no such thing as time or space". That seems to cover all possibilities and I have not violated anyone's religious beliefs, etc. I have NOT suggested after birth, before birth or a past life. Just a general statement about the UM. It can go back as far as it wants to without my leading it. It KNOWS WHERE TO GO WITHOUT ME TELLING IT TO GO THERE. I never studied Tad James' language that closely as I am NOT Tad James so why would I want to speak exactly like Tad James. I take the idea/meaning he was putting forth and use my own words. I think that is what he was really trying to convey - here's a template - use your own words. Maybe that's why the language is not that "clean". Could be he assumes that anyone that is intelligent enough to learn TLT, is intelligent enough to THINK FOR THEMSELVES and not mimick every word he utters.

[Poodle]

Don't you just LOVE their ad: You deserve a BREAK today. Ohh what fun the old SC can have with that one. An accident looking for a place to happen. Break toe, foot, leg, back, shoulder, arm, finger. Who knows but you sure DESERVE ONE! No thanks. I try to keep my parts together!

[Poodle]

Gee Nigel. I never heard him say that and I never read that he wrote it either. Where did you hear it or read that? That would make us nothing more than parrots. We work with his work all the time. I believe Dr. James has a belief that educated people are to use their brains -- not follow scripts verbatum. Maybe Matt James would like to jump in the middle of this one?

[Nigel H]

That would be great if there were some further clarification on this issue.

It may be my making a wrong assumption from something that happened in our training where a student asked about the wording and was told he could not alter it. This may be that the trainer is not allowed to certify someone who is not fully using the wording and wanting to change it before he is passed, but I was working on the thought that it would then apply after that as well.

After all ..... I would wonder what is the point of trademarking something if people can then go on and change it whilst still calling it the same thing. The whole point of trademarking things surely is to maintain the integrity of something in an original form, that you have discovered, or wish to avoid others using as their own. So if I am a Time Line Therapy(TM) Master Practitioner, but then change the wording - am I not changing the content of what I say I am doing, to some degree?

I may be doing Time Line work, but if I am not using the correct wording, is it then allowed to be called Time Line Therapy?

Much as I hate to ! - using the Mcdonalds example again, the franchise sticks to strict guidelines on how things are to be done, so all Mcdonalds are pretty much the same. Does this mean you can't get a good [better!] burger somewhere else, no - it just isn't Mcdonlads then.

Maybe it comes down to how much you change the words, but where would the line be drawn? 3 words, 7, 15 ..............

So - certainly - I would be glad to get any further clarity on it from those who are in a position to tell us, from links to the originator.

Nig

[skip]

TaffyE,

I am curious.

What did you try and what was your definition of success?

If I understand correctly, if you used clean language you had no unintended suggestion about PL.

That would mean that the client would be free to respond from their unaltered belief system. So some would have the past life belief and others wouldnt.

You would simply know that you didnt inadvertantly install it.

Or so I surmise.

Which to me would mean that lack of success means that you werent able to 'keep it clean', which I'll admit with both verbal and non verbal communication is sometimes very difficult if not impossible.

thanks,

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Isn't it a shame that everybody is right, and nobody wrong (G)????? If you are going to use a system that is registered, it is proper to use it exactly as presented, or you are cheating the owner of the trade mark. That is, you follow every suggestion or word to the letter, just like a parrot. Sorry but the owner has that right, and you must call it something else if you don't agree. Now, I use good old fashioned hypnosis myself, since that is all that was taught when I first began, and I find from reading what others here write, that what I consider hypnosis has now been split into various parts, and it seems "chunked" for better understanding or training. However, thank heavens everything I do comes from my own subconcious imagination, and nobody has any right to it or to change it (EG) Lucky me eh? Skip and I are together on this point of clean language, and I will go even further. I perfer to see verbal directions limited as much as possible, so that the subconcious can be free to work on the client with limited interference from the practitioner. That is why I am sold on touch therapy, it is wordless, and it works. But then, so does Faith Healing, so perhaps we only have one system but with many different names?

[skip]

Terry,

I think you have a terriffic point there.

In fact, if you look at the different change modalities that have been popular (because they worked), they all can be boiled down to some essental skills that work, and work every time they are competently and honestly tried.

Maxwell Maltz MD a plastic surgeon in the 1950's wrote a book that has an awsome change technique, one that works everytime if used as instructed, and can even transform such 'difficult' things as self esteem. An NLPer would recognize it as awfully close to ...

Simple, easy, and yet who uses it or even knows about him?

Besides me. :)

cheers,

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Actually Skip, I had his book, or one of them if he wrote more, but lost it in one of my moves. It likely remains in my son's posession, since he took over my house when I moved to a condo, together with much stuff I left behind, including books. Don't remember what he wrote, but likely it did affect my own operations if it was any good...

[Merlin]

When I took Tad's training on Time line therapy, he pointed out how often it failed for people.
Upon further examination he usually found them changing things.
Tad emphasizes doing it his way, at least until you can get consistent results.

[Poodle]

Does that mean one is not allowed to change a couple of words? I believe in doing it his way too as he created it but does it mean I have to memorize the text and say his exact words as printed? Am I allowed no "creativity" at all? I just heard Bandler's idea of TLT and I was not overly impressed to say the least! Might just be me tho. Others may see it totally differently.

[Merlin]

Poodle,

When I took Tad's training on Time line therapy, he pointed out how often it failed for people.
Upon further examination he usually found them changing things.
Tad emphasizes doing it his way, at least until you can get consistent results.

If you're getting good results, I don't think it matters.