This is both true and outrageously unbelievable.

[lolliedotcom]

I'm kind of a mad social scientist.

The only time I've been successfully hypnotised, he spent an hour on the induction and I cleaned house like I was born to love it for the next six months. I did love it. It was the greatest joy in my life.

Now I need to access a state I've been in about 10 or 12 times in my life. I can only describe it as a state of Psychic Will Power. I will things to happen so strongly that they do. A good example is presented with my NBII page.

I am also a professional psychic and I know the biggest majority of professional psychics are a bunch of fakes, but I'm not one of them as you can probably see in the feedback I get from my clients I'm not here to pick up new customers, I've got plenty and they're used to me.

I'm here because I've got bigger fish to fry.
I'm ready to break the psychic version of the four minute mile.
I'm going to win lotteries.

For one thing, this will give me - a real psychic, the opportunity to explain to people that the definitions they've gotten of what psychics are "were written by fakes."

See's all, knows all, my @ss! That's simply not what psychic ability is. It's a little different in everyone, but for me, mostly, I remember the future about as well and sometimes better than you remember the past. That's a far cry from see's all, knows all, but it's still impressing me and I do it every day.

I'm convinced I'm plenty psychic to win the powerball. Anyone who'd like some of the legs under the table of my belief, just ask. Still, if every failure is another step closer to success, I'd say I'm about 50 steps closer than I was when I decided to do this.

But I think there are two things holding me back.

Money in my childhood home was the start of every dramatic fuss or actual fight between my parents. I've heard my mother say a million times with great intensity, "None of us will ever be able to have anything and it's all your fault, Tony Seth." (He was an alcoholic) I developed a disinterest in money. I've gotten better, but not enough to naturally put myself into the right state to pull the numbers. I'm in it for several things, media attention for my life's work mainly, and I'm pretty sure the first professional psychic to win lotteries will get that. .................................................. ........................................
The second obstacle is, the first decade I was psychic, I hated it. It was traumatic to see the future as though through shower door glass in a dream, feel death, but not know who to warn. Then when it happened, I just hated myself for not figuring it out well enough to prevent it. So I really shut down a lot of my abilities. I need a lot of what I shut down, opened back up.
See what I mean. I don't need a good hypnotist. I need one of the best.

We can fund our dreams, become important footnotes in history and irritate everyone who ever said to me, "if you're so damned psychic, why aren't you rich?!?"

Whaddaya say, split the wins down the middle?

I talked with a very nice hypnotist about this and he was willing to do it free for half the winnings, but he gave me a thirty minute total session off a borrowed script that had less than 5% to do with what I need.
Talk about wanting something for nothing. Arrrggh.

Anyone extremely good in this field want to make some history? If you like cash, that's quite a lot of money. Or if you're like me, you can fund your life's work. But I need your best, not your least.

Last but certainly not least, if anyone reading this wants to argue with me cause you are sure I'm a fake - don't waste our time. I won't convince you, you won't convince me. But by God when I win a few lotteries, betcha that'll make ya lean my way a bit.

[Tranceaholic]

The events you talk about could be diminishing your ability to access the information you require & if that is the case I would suggest you see a competant NLP Practitioner who also does Time Line Therapy.

There's just one more thing I would probobly consider & that is if it is your best interest to win the lottery. Perhaps the Universe has other plans.

[lolliedotcom]

The events you talk about could be diminishing your ability to access the information you require & if that is the case I would suggest you see a competant NLP Practitioner who also does Time Line Therapy..
I couldn't agree more. But I tell ya, getting the name of the best heart surgeon or bridge builder is either one, easy as a few clicks on Google. But it seems getting the names of some of the best NLP Practitioners who do Time Line Therapy is harder than pulling a horse through a Sonic straw. Is there no list of the best or the best of the best in hypnotherapy like there is in every other field? If not, why not? If not, what do you do rather than try out every one till someone works out for ya in which case guessing with the odds at 120 million to one might actually happen quicker? ( Can you tell I'm a tad frustrated?) lol

Isn't there a shortcut in the process?


There's just one more thing I would probobly consider & that is if it is your best interest to win the lottery. Perhaps the Universe has other plans.
Yes, perhaps the universe does. And if it gets here before I win the "lotteries" by all mean, I may very well reshift my focus. But in the meantime, it seems everything in my life has lead me here to this moment. I believe I am privy to some of the most important information that almost everyone needs and almost no one has. Since I don't see anyone else taking it to the masses in an effective way, I feel like it's my job. And the only thing about me that would truly diminish the effectiveness of the message - I'm a damn phone psychic. lol Which means to most that I'm a fake and therefore nothing I say is worth even considering...... unless of course, I win lotteries. Therefore, until God shows me a better way, I'm convinced it's in the best interest of my calling, my life's work, to win lotteries. And anything that's in the best interest of my life's work is all my life is for. I've prayed to God and said, "Lord, you know how I feel about my work, you know I want a tragic though pain free death to draw attention to it, no matter what I accomplish or don't alive." That's how important this is.

Will anyone suggest a more than competent, truly excellent NLP practitioner who is also good with time line therapy? I've been searching for this for weeks now. I swear it's been as challenging and so far unsuccessful as hitting the numbers. And surely to God it's not impossible.

[lolliedotcom]

Correction, surely to God, neither is impossible.

[Merlin]

>See what I mean. I don't need a good hypnotist. I need one of the best.

Actually, from what you posted, a mediocre hypnotist could probably help.
Not a wanna-be who reads scripts, but an experienced, though maybe not the best, hypnotist.

Finding lottery numbers is actually quite easy once you learn how. Anyone who is trained how can do it. You just need to exersize the ol' psi-muscle.

Anyway, find a full-time hypnotist and get the help you seek.

I look forward to hearing of your winnings. Please post and share.

(The psi-chic)

[skip]

Dear Lolli Dot Com,

After reading your request, and subsequently your reason for your request, I, as a NLP/hypnosis person, who may, or may not be, one of the good ones, have a thought.

One of the first things I do when a person asks for my help with something, is to run it thru what might be called a "clarity model", or a "well formed outome" model.

Surely you would recognize that if someone bought a fancy sports car, so that they would attract beautiful women, and they found themselves riding around alone in said car, they would be dissatisfied with the outcome. Yes, they got the car, and presumably their money's worth, but they didnt get what they were really "buying".

So the first question I, or any other NLPer/hypnotist that IS any good, would have, is "Would winning the lottery be "proof positive" for all those doubters out there that you are indeed psychic?" In other words would winning the lottery get you what you have said you intend to achieve?

I sincerely doubt that it would. In fact I suspect it would make doubters more suspicious. But that is just my way of thinking.

I have a couple of friends who introduced me to a psychic healer in Richmond. This lady once diagnosed a foot problem with one of my friends by telling her she had a glass sliver in one of her shoes. This from hundreds of miles away.

OK a lucky guess.

She also told another woman who was on the phone with her for help, that she and her husband had not been sexually active together for a couple of years. This was true, and so disturbed the woman, that someone would know this, she disontinued the session.

You know when lucky guesses begin to pile up ...

I know another psychic that lives close to me who has a two year waiting list for appointemnts. I am sure that there are plenty of people who douby his abilities, but somehow I dont think he cares one whit.

So I might offer, in my humble experience, that there are lots of ways to 'proove' your psychic abilities, and by so doing, you can have more "work" than you can ever handle. That 'prooving' to everyone is not just impossible, but perhaps a fools endeavor.

Even with the lottery business succeeding, you still have doubters, and you still would have only so many hours in the day to see clients. AND if you are really good you already know you dont need the lottery to attract clients and get paid what you are worth.

Now Ill admit that consistantly winning the lottery would be a minor challenge for someone with foreknoweledge, and there might be some side benifits that make it worth while indulging in.

BUT I doubt it would achieve what you indicate is your purpose, and that your purpose can be achieved, given your current capabilities.

You might want to think about that a bit.

skip

[solaris152000]

If your really a psycic you should be abvle to read our minds to answer, and whats with all the different fonts and sizes, I read half of your post and you were just advertising yourself. So in plain english.... What do you want??

[lolliedotcom]

>See what I mean. I don't need a good hypnotist. I need one of the best.

Actually, from what you posted, a mediocre hypnotist could probably help.
Not a wanna-be who reads scripts, but an experienced, though maybe not the best, hypnotist.
That's a very good point Merlin. Thank you. :)

[lolliedotcom]

So the first question I, or any other NLPer/hypnotist that IS any good, would have, is "Would winning the lottery be "proof positive" for all those doubters out there that you are indeed psychic?" In other words would winning the lottery get you what you have said you intend to achieve?

I sincerely doubt that it would. In fact I suspect it would make doubters more suspicious. But that is just my way of thinking.

So I might offer, in my humble experience, that there are lots of ways to 'proove' your psychic abilities, and by so doing, you can have more "work" than you can ever handle. That 'prooving' to everyone is not just impossible, but perhaps a fools endeavor.

Even with the lottery business succeeding, you still have doubters, and you still would have only so many hours in the day to see clients. AND if you are really good you already know you dont need the lottery to attract clients and get paid what you are worth.

Now Ill admit that consistantly winning the lottery would be a minor challenge for someone with foreknoweledge, and there might be some side benifits that make it worth while indulging in.

BUT I doubt it would achieve what you indicate is your purpose, and that your purpose can be achieved, given your current capabilities.

skip
Skip thank you so much for your response. Clearly I left out the most important parts of the post. Duh. ;D


Lotteries, not lottery.
My life's work is not being psychic. That's what I do to support my life's work. Lollie.com is a compendium of giggle soup, wallpapers, rants, romance advice.... not all of it is vitally important info that I feel compelled to take to the masses, but the information about negative emotions being gifts when you know how to use them - that's important. Getting people to realize that learning how to use them wisely beats hell out of suffering, managing or controlling negative emotions. If you're reading this concept the first time, it might not make sense yet, but check out the "Use the Blues" section of my site. Everything there has to be delivered to people in a way they can see it. Reading it isn't good enough. People need to see it. I am not a screen writer. But I need one of the best to write the movie, I need to finance the movie, I have to make it happen. People don't have to watch it, people who watch it don't have to believe it, those who choose to believe it don't have to install it and use it...... But I have to make it and make sure it's top of the line so most folks will at least see it. That's my life's work.
My non-psychic personal site, is currently getting around a million hits a year. It's gotten as high as three million a year, but i've been letting things slide lately. So I'm already reaching people, but I have to reach everyone.

After I win lotteries, I'll still read cards for people, but I won't have to charge them and it'll be for the joy of exercising the gift God gave me, not to support me and my calling.

So you see, it's not that I'm trying to earn more business, I've got plenty of business.

Anyways, yeah, winning not a lottery, but rather lotteries, will get me what I need. And if God would rather give it to me some other way, that's great, but the fact I've been a psychic all my life weakens my work unless I use it to win a few lotteries that will pay for the movie and shut up at least half of the naysayers. Look at mt site. It's not your typical phone psychic's personal website. It's over three hundred pages and only six of them have a tiny ad on them.


Consider:

The three greatest leaps forward in the past evolution of humankind were the discovery of how to harness and use: fire, water and electricity.

I contend that three of the greatest leaps forward in the future evolution of humankind will be folks learning to wisely use: anger, fear, loneliness.

Guns don't kill people.
People don't kill people.
People who have never heard of utilizing their negative emotions are either suffering, controlling or managing them poorly and wind up with their emotions spiking into the strasphere and they pick up a gun, a knife, a hammer or what ever and that's what kills people.

It's also what causes suicides, spousal abuse and most child abuse.

What happens if you only suffer, control or manage the alarm clock by your bed? You wind up fired. You have to USE it wisely for it to work for you.

What happens if you continually ignore your "I gotta pee" alerts? You'll develop lifelong bladder and kidney problems.

What happens if you ignore your "I gotta eat" hunger alerts? You'll develop a life long eating disorder, you'll either become obese or anorexic.

No one points to the way Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr. and Mother Teresa used their anger beautifully, wisely, brilliantly. No one is educated at home or in schools how to wisely utilize their negative emotions cause most have never even heard such a concept.

When I'm done, at least they'll have heard it and seen it.

See? I'm not trying to win lotteries to become the busiest psychic in America. I like to work, but not that much.

[lolliedotcom]

If your really a psycic you should be abvle to read our minds to answer, and whats with all the different fonts and sizes, I read half of your post and you were just advertising yourself. So in plain english.... What do you want??
Solaris, that's a good point. It's made on a definition of psychics created by the fakes. See's all, knows all, reads minds.

That's not what I do. I remember the future. I'm a good eye witness, but I don't read minds in remembering the future, any more than you read minds in the past.

I'm psychic, I'm not a mind reader. There is a difference.

What I want is a name. I'm amazed that not one person can or will recommend a good NLP and time line practitioner.

If you know one, what's the harm in sharing their name?

Again, why is it that in the field of hypnosis no one is jumping up and saying at least "Well I don't think you're a psychic, but everyone knows XXX XXXXX is one of the best hypnotists in the country."

In every field there are those that are the best and in every other field, everyone knows their names? Why not in hypnosis?

[j0hnny#]

Now I need to access a state I've been in about 10 or 12 times in my life. I can only describe it as a state of Psychic Will Power. I will things to happen so strongly that they do.


Remember the state so vividly with all your representational systems (imagine what it is like to be back in that state .... what you see, how things and people react to you, what you smell, how the breath feels on the nose, what you feel, the level and manner of energy flowing through you,what you imagine, the way your thoughts come forth and how you command them, what you hear, the sound of your voice, movement, internal voice, the way people sound around you, - the way everything is about being in that state, vividly.... make it real .... when you are there as it is blossoming and as you really feel this state flourishing - rub your hands together vigorously, nod your head and say 'yess, now I have it..... now I am in command' to anchor the state.. then you will have it when you need it...

And when you have it.... increase the peace...

Cheers
j

[lolliedotcom]

And when you have it.... increase the peace...

Cheers
j
Thank you for your very clear discription of putting myself back into that state. I'll work on that alone until I can find a NLP and time line hypnotist. That just might work by itself. If it does Johnny, there's a $10,000 tip in it for your advice especially the increase the peace part. I promise you, me and God above, I'll get it done.

I appreciate your lack of prejudice and your help. I'm naturally an improvement mismatcher and people who think the worst of me strengthen me, but it sure is nice to come back expecting to see more barbs or misunderstandings and to find you instead. :)

[Don]

There is something you are not considering in this, and unfortunately it is too complex to describe fully here. However, please allow me to give you a simplified version of it. It may be that you already know this--in which case I apologize for repeating it--but it is something you haven't discussed above.

Specifically, you're saying that you want techniques for winning lotteries, correct? Well, here is the truth: you have the techniques already. The problem is not with what you want, but what you don't know about yourself.

This actually goes back to an even more basic question: why are we here? Part of the answer is that we are here to learn about the nature of reality. But these lessons are not merely conscious lessons. They are also unconscious lessons and before we can evolve, we have to show that we understand the lessons. If we don't show that we understand them, we have to stay at the current level of schooling until we do show it.

So the problem may be that there are lessons in life you need to learn and your subconscious is providing you the school in which to learn it: your current economic state.

In short, you may want to win lotteries, but your unconscious knows that it is not yet time for you to win. So the answer is that you need to discover not how to win, but what lessons you need to know so that you no longer need to be in a state where you are not ready to win.

So rather than asking us what you need to do to win, I would respectfully suggest that you would succeed more quickly if you ask yourself what you need to know so you no longer have to be in the current state.

[solaris152000]

Please, NLP and hypnosis are to intertwined with spirituallity and psycicness. Sorry, but you cannot see the future. It is impossible, please NLP is a science. NLP can not help you do the impossible.

Now this is what I belive... It may not be true but...

I think you have posted here trying to get new customers. I belive you know that you don't have psycic powers. You say there are many fakes out there but I am real. Why if you do have psycic abillities don't you go to your nearist parapsycology department and show them...hay; you could be famous!
But alas your not.....


Solaris

[lolliedotcom]

I think you have posted here trying to get new customers. If I was digging for new customers I'd hang out on new age boards. That would work. A lot of psychics do. But to tell you the truth, I don't like psychic virgins any more than I like psychic junkies.

Psychic virgins expect you to read their mind, to see all, know all. They tend to give you a bad rating if you don't. Psychic junkies have been trained by the fakes to start the call with the whole story so the fake can give them pisspoor arm chair psychology. The only clients I really love to read for are my regular clients and the people they refer.


I belive you know that you don't have psycic powers. SolarisI'd feel the same way if I were you. Youve been taught all your life we're all fakes and you've never experienced anything psychically yourself.

I had a friend of mine read for me years ago and she was a hippy chick, used tarot cards, candles, the whole new age bit, so I took it all with a grain of salt. She said such unbelievable things! She said it looked like in my cards that she would be murdered in two years. She said I had a life calling which caused me to bray with laughter, cause we both knew I was an athiest at the time.

Two years later when she was murdered by the same serial killer that killed a Tulsa ABC affiliate newswoman, I began to go back over my notes. I didn't recognise my calling until some ten years later. I'd gone from atheist to agnostic, to "yeah theres a God alright, but he's a cruel monster" and finally found God with my Nikon digital when I'd take macro shots of butterflies, flowers and such. Even a cave dwelling centipede is a work of art up close.
God! What an artist. Bottom line, my belief or lack there of, in Margaret's ability didn't change the truth. That hippy chick was damn sure psychic.


Why if you do have psycic abillities don't you go to your nearist parapsycology department and show them...hay; you could be famous!
But alas your not.....
SolarisTheir tests aren't designed right. Psychic ability is more like humor or orgasm than math. Most people when put on the spot to be funny, become their un-funniest. All comedians complain about fans coming up and trying to be funny because they're so painfully unfunny. Do you think those fans are always that unfunny? No. We're all hilarious from time to time. But accessing humor, orgasms and psychic ability require you to be in just the right frame of mind, with just the right focus. Everyone is different, but for each of us, there are parameters.

Tonight, say to a friend or loved one that you know is often hilarious, "Hey, say something funny right.... NOW." If they can't, does that prove they're not funny? No. Just not funny when they're put on that spot.

Or, Solaris, let's walk you into that cold, sterile, pastel and white environment. Let's hook up the electrodes, turn on the cameras, get people in white coats watching you as they scribble furiously on their clipboards..... you think it'll be as easy for you to reach orgasm there as it is for you at home, alone, with the lights low and the woman you love in your warm embrace?

And yes, I know, there are porno stars who can do it in front of anyone, and some people have successfully done in under strict laboratory experiments, but you know as well as I do, the lab adds a level of difficulty.

For me if I'm focused on proving I'm psychic it usually blows it, I have to focus on helping people.

I know this much from your posts Solaris.... you haven't checked out my site and you haven't checked out my feedback from clients that have called me.... any fake can get good ratings, but the words you want to look for are "accuracy, time, dates." No one has to get a reading from me to see I'm psychic. Measure those words, "accuracy, time, dates" count how many times they're in my feedback against anyone else at keen. That's all the proof anyone with intelligence needs. "She's AWESOME." doesn't mean ****. But when they say, wow, you said he'd call in a month and you were right again! That's a hell of a fake that can guess dates from hours to years and hit it right most of the time.

But until you check out my real site and my feedback from my job, you sound like so many republicans griping about Fahrenheit 911.... I can't imagine challenging someone without doing my homework first. Do you homework, then come back and hit me where it might actually hurt. ;)

[TeeJay]

When a person calls you a fake without knowing the first thing about you, what they are really saying is, "I don't believe in this ability. I don't have it, therefor you don't either"! Quite normal really, we are exposed to idiotic claims all the time, and have developed an imunity to them.
I have had many experiences of PSI and have also done experiments involving them, with successful results. On the other hand, I do know of many fakes, as I am sure you do, so accept that others will not be willing to accept what you say without question.....As to the idea that you can win several lotteries via pschic abilities, I do indeed question your ability to succeed. When a person gets the "feeling" they know beyond doubt that they are correct, as when my wife's friend said she would love to win a microwave oven that was being drawn for at a Christmas party, and my wife, without batting an eyelid, said, I am going to win it, and it's yours....YES she did, and yes she gave it away since she had already won one a few months earlier....You see, we are all psychic to a degree, but often fail to recognise the moment, and it passes us by. On the other hand, developing the ability to deliberately produce this feeling on demand may well be beyond your abilities, though that is no reason for you not trying. Go for it.

[Merlin]

>Solaris, NLP is a modelling tool.
>Please, NLP and hypnosis are to intertwined with spirituallity and psycicness. Sorry, but you cannot see the future. It is impossible, please NLP is a science. NLP can not help you do the impossible.

Model a psi-chic if you want the skill.

[Merlin]

Lollie,

I personally don't believe in the mumbo jumbo about whether or not the universe (or whatever force) waqnts someone to win the lottory, learn XYZ lessons or whatever.
I require my students to get the lottory numbers right 85% of the time before graduation.
Get the lottory jackpot 3 times in a row and some people will believe.
Others won't believe no matter what 'cause it's impossible (right Solaris?)

Stick to what you originally sought if you do have psychic skills.

Be successful

-the Psi-Chic

[lolliedotcom]

As to the idea that you can win several lotteries via pschic abilities, I do indeed question your ability to succeed. ....developing the ability to deliberately produce this feeling on demand may well be beyond your abilities, though that is no reason for you not trying. Go for it.
Thank you for your excellent post. Being a mismatcher, I'll cut right to it. :)

There are sensing/feeling psychics and mostly, I'm not of them. I'm primarely visual psychic. I've deliberately produced the state more than a few times. I don't have a problem with getting into the state except when it comes to money. I think it's bad programming from my childhood.


In any case, thank you so much. I really enjoyed your post.

[lolliedotcom]

Lollie,

I require my students to get the lottory numbers right 85% of the time before graduation.


-the Psi-Chic
Merl you intrigue me. What are you teaching? How do you teach them to get the numbers right 85% of the time?

[skip]

Hello All,

As a moderator on this forum, I feel that it is time to have a bit of a say here.

This is a hypnosis forum.

This isnt a psychic forum, or hotline.

I have enjoyed this discussion so far, because of the beliefs it exposes, and then the following rationalizations, that are created, to support those beliefs.

If we can confine our discussion to, "How can hypnosis or NLP be used to develop or enhance psychic abilities?". fine.

If you dont believe in psychic abilities, you can certainly appreciate that there IS a lot of communication that we do miss, and the ability to tap into that, might be what we call psychic ability, and still vigorously participate, in how to expand our human potential, thru hypnosis/nlp.

If it is going to turn into a 'there is/is not any such thing as psychic ability; or so and so is a fake psychic; then I will either deleat this entire thread, or the posts lending themselves to that tack.

To lollidotcom specifically,

Some people have concluded that you are attempting to spam this list. The reason their suspicion runs so high, is that in your posts, there seem to always be several links, to your site. If so, it is a more sophisticated attempt, than most spammers use, and I appreciate that.

I also realize that in order to have those links, to your site, you must be deliberate in putting them in.

I would ask you, to refrain.

Your 'handel', or your sig line, or the link found by looking at your profile, are more than sufficent for people to find you, if they want to.

I do a lot of business over the internet, most of it hypnosis, and I suspect you would be hard pressed to find my commercial enterprises, from the information you can aquire here. That is deliberate. I dont expect that you be as circumspect as me, but you can maintain a lower profile.

I am in favor of keeping this place 'spam free', and would probably tend to err on the side of eliminating what I consider spam, over toleration.

thanks to all,

skip

sitting on my velvet throne, wielding the magic wand of death, awaiting the dancing virgins ...

[Merlin]

Hi Lollie,

85% is a minimum. Like the *D* a barely passing grade.
I mention it only to encourage you to stay focussed on your original desire to get hypnotic help to deal with the money issues.

Lottory numbers are convenient in that they are posted on the Internet. It's a convenient target and it makes for great feedback.

Hypnosis is great for the kind of help you posted you are seeking :)
When the mind interferes, and it sometimes does, it is often (not always) caused by some sort of early childhood learnings.
Undoing the sabotage of your inner mind is usually easy to accomplish by just about any skilled hypnotist.

Now, go be successful :)

[TeeJay]

Lollie, perhaps it is time to end this thread by answering one question nobody has tried to answer to date, that being, who is the best? Now from my time on this board alone, I could name several members whom I respect, and consider very good practitioners. If I had no been retired so long, I might even include myself among them, but hypnosis is different from any other field in that we need to relate strongly with each other to gain maximum success, so since people are so different one from the other, what works as the best for you, might not work for someone with a different personality, or a different problem.
You also need to contact the practitioner personally, which limits you to a person local to were you live, or will involve travel. You haven't said were you are located, and even if we did happen to know someone close by, we might not be able to promote them as even good, never mind "the best"....There is no directory of practitioners listing them in order of skills, hence the hesititation of anyone to offer a name. Terry

[solaris152000]

MErlin youmean to say that your student can get the lottery numbers right 85% of the time.... sorry but that is just rubbish.

[lolliedotcom]

Lollie, perhaps it is time to end this thread by answering one question nobody has tried to answer to date, that being, who is the best?
You need to contact the practitioner personally, which limits you to a person local to were you live, or will involve travel. You haven't said were you are located, and even if we did happen to know someone close by, we might not be able to promote them as even good, never mind "the best"....There is no directory of practitioners listing them in order of skills, hence the hesititation of anyone to offer a name. TerryThank you TeeJay!! I was beginning to think I'd entered a twilight zone board, where questions couldn't be answered unless one knew the proper code. If all of you were psychics, you'd be the one I'd hire - straight to issue. I love that. With that said, would anyone consider offering the name of someone relatively good within 300 miles of Tulsa, OK?

TeeJay, you're an angel. Thank you. :)

[lolliedotcom]

Hello All,

To lollidotcom specifically,

Some people have concluded that you are attempting to spam this list. The reason their suspicion runs so high, is that in your posts, there seem to always be several links, to your site. If so, it is a more sophisticated attempt, than most spammers use, and I appreciate that.

I also realize that in order to have those links, to your site, you must be deliberate in putting them in.

I would ask you, to refrain. ....

skip

sitting on my velvet throne, wielding the magic wand of death, awaiting the dancing virgins ...Wow Skip, you're accidentally psychic yourself. I am in fact, a virgin, albeit, a born-again virgin, (comes in a bottle, only $19.95, want to buy one? [kidding, kidding,])still.... :D In any case I'm a terrible dancer. :o

I see your point. I love the way you communicated it too. Well done, Skip. I coulda spotted you as an NLPer on any message board on the net.

I would like to make one point before I go and it isn't psychic or about psychic. My namesake site is over three hundred pages of the free-est free site on the internet. And if any of you can find a free-er site as big anywhere in the world, show it to me, show it to this thread. Cause none of you can find even one. It is neither psychic nor new age nor hypnosis. What amazes me, is that no one even took a glance at my personal site. I swear to God, if any of you had, you'd have seen I'm not big on advertising my job. You all went to look at that crappy little site of the Magician's that was purely advertising and not very well done at that. Ya'll shoulda looked at lollie.c, I guarandamntee ya, everyone but Solaris woulda been impressed. NOT with my psychic work, but with the early stage of my life's work - that my job supports.

I know ya'll can't be a bunch ah sissies, but if I didn't know that couldn't be true..... I'd sure enough think so. :confused:

Skip, I appreciate very much that you didn't jump to prejudge me. I can appreciate you may well feel you have to delete this post and/or thread with this particular post. I can accept that. But if you cruise around the "Use the Blues" section of my site and cruise a few pages beyond the politics in the wallpaper gallery, you at least, will know I wasn't spamming my job. You'll see I'm not that kind of person. I've got many flaws, I'm too long winded for sure. But a workaholic on the job, I'm not.

[skip]

Lollie,


"I would like to make one point before I go ..."

If I may, dont go just yet, if you decide to go at all.

I still think the exploration of expanding human potential beyond what we now consider to be 'the norm', is a very worthwhile endeavor. Now maybe it would entail starting a new thread, something along the lines, of "How can we use hypnosis to expand our perception, of what the universe is communicating to us...", or not.

Have you read Erik Tolley's book "Extreme Spirituality", it has a section on forgiveness, and the belief that the universe provides abundance, and uses winning at slot machines to guage whether or not you have been successful in forgiving. It is quite fascinating, and it works, even if doesnt turn out to specifically apply to what you are attempting. There could be something there for you, but Im not sure of it.

skip

[Unregistered]

Lollie,



Have you read Erik Tolley's book "Extreme Spirituality",
skip

That would be Tolly Burkan, the man who brought firewalking to the west.

Amazing instructor and facilitator.

Di.

[Calvin Iwema]

One often needs the best to show how special and important they are. You have stated your lack of support and attention. Do you think that winning the lottery will "show those poeple who you really are?" and "put them in their place?" I think you are fine just the way you are, without having to be superhuman.

When I needed to work on some things, I decided that I needed to find a skilled person. What made the difference is that I decided to be the best client and was willing to do most of the work myself. It worked.

[Neurotic1]

Hello Lollie

Interesting plan you have. Good luck to you in pulling it off. You have has some interesting and insightful responses to your question and there is little I can add. Personally (and it is just an opinion), I think that we can all develop our psychic ability to some extent and some would say indefinitely. If you look at it from one particular spiritual point of view then if you knew everything and had achieved everything on Earth then you wouldn't need to be here because you would have completed your lessons long ago and money would hold literally no value to you because you probably wouldn't need it. I always feel very grateful for small psychic or clairvoyant moments, good or bad, which to you would most likely seem a drop in the ocean. I feel that a good part of this comes from what I believe are spirit guides, helping us on our lifepath and perhaps I don't always thank them enough. I hope that whatever happens for you in this is the right thing for you (whatever it is almost certainly should be the right thing for your development).

[welshguymikey]

havent you ever thought that it might just be chance that these things happen when u will them too, when i was younger i constantly had da ja voo for years and when i wished things really hard they often did happen, but two things

a) how do you know these "powers" are real and not just a scary chance
b) Why would you want to be able to do things like that anyway

i dont believe that what i experienced was "Paranormal" and the constant feeling of da ja voo and willing things and even knowing what is going to happen just freaked me out, i belieev now that it was just that my brain pieced clues togetehr well and things were just coincidental, what makes u so sure you are pyscic?

also do you train to do things like that? or did it just happen

[welshguymikey]

havent you ever thought that it might just be chance that these things happen when u will them too, when i was younger i constantly had da ja voo for years and when i wished things really hard they often did happen, but two things

a) how do you know these "powers" are real and not just a scary chance
b) Why would you want to be able to do things like that anyway

i dont believe that what i experienced was "Paranormal" and the constant feeling of da ja voo and willing things and even knowing what is going to happen just freaked me out, i belieev now that it was just that my brain pieced clues togetehr well and things were just coincidental, what makes u so sure you are pyscic?

also do you train to do things like that? or did it just happen
oh yea forgot to mention i had brain damage so it could have alot of the da ja voo could have been in my head and not real atall,

[Neurotic1]

Good points welshguy. I have occasionally experienced things that are so bizarre as to be difficult to put down to coincidence - ranging from predicting the most unusual and unexpected things that people are going to say and literally taking their breath away to having premonitions of things, dismissing them and then freakily finding myself living the same situation (sort of deja vu BUT knowing where I've seen the events before - ie dreamt it). Now if I put my science hat on, I could say that these extraordinary events could be nothing more than a cluster of remarkable coincidences. You could say that I created them by believing they would happen, and all the above which your said re: deja vu. Indeed I still question these experiences in that manner as it is hard even for me to accept they are real. Having said that, I usually come back to the conclusion that the more profoundly unusual experiences are really not coincidences, whatever the cause.

Unfortunately, whilst many over the years I don't get these delightful events every day. Many people do claim to have trained themselves to be able to do this with varying degrees of success. I have tried and had a little success but I wouldn't claim to be unusually psychic or clairvoyant if i may use those labels for these sort of phenomena.

It would be interesting to have lollie's point of view...

[Merlin]

Mikey,

Sometimes things are just coincidents.
You can train to be better.
You'll never know if you make excuses, 'well it was just chance' and such.

Hit the lottery and maybe it was chance.
Do it twice and you wonder.
3rd times a charm tho.
It's always a matter of odds, you can never be 100%.
But you can be 99.9999% accurate or better.

That's better odds than seeing the lottery drawing and writing down the winning numbers after the fact.

[lolliedotcom]

Do you think that winning the lottery will "show those poeple who you really are?" and "put them in their place?" I think you are fine just the way you are, without having to be superhuman. Calvin, what would "YOU" do if you found the most important information that almost everyone needs and almost no one has? Likely you'd try and get people to hear it, see it, consider it. You'd try and get on tv shows with it. You'd try to get songs written about it and movies made about it. You'd write to everyone you could think of that might help. Right?

Well I've done all of that and no one will listen. If they do their homework before they reply, chances are it's because I'm nothing but a "phone psychic." So my thinking is that you can buy attention with money. Winning several lotteries would make me news. "Psychic Wins Lottery!" is one of the biggest headlines that has NEVER been published before.

When I run a contest where I give $5000 to 100 people who write songs based on my "Use the Blues" (http://www.lollie.com/blue/emotions.html) advice..... that will cause millions to come read it.

When I give $100,000 each to the favorite charities of hit makers that make hits out of a dozen of those songs... that will get people to hear the information. With my winnings and my story (being the first psychic to win lotteries) I'll be able to get a movie made that illustrates what my "Use the Blues" section is saying.... and then my job on earth will be done and the rest of my time will be free of this King Kong sized monkey on my back.

Ya'll crack me up trying to tell me money isn't all that important. You're preaching to the choir and making my mother spin like a top in her grave. All of our lives together she was always saying to me, "Oh Lollie! You're so smart, why don't you focus on something important! Something like money!" And everytime I'd think, "surely to God there is something more important in this world than money!" And I still feel that way and would gladly give up on the lottery if there were any other way. For now I've given up on other ways and I'm focusing on making that headline, "Psychic Wins Lottery."

[lolliedotcom]

a) how do you know these "powers" are real and not just a scary chance
I've been reading for myself and others for 30 years. I've seen the guys in person that I said in the cards would show up. I've got tons of examples, here's one:

I told a stringbean 18 yr old with a head full of bright auburn, Diana Ross frizz bigger than she was, that it didn't matter none of the guys wanted her in her high school, cause in 8 months she was going to meet her husband and he was tall, dark, handsome and had a slight speech defect. he would think she was the sexiest, most beautiful woman alive.

His name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. They have two children. He's pretty high up in the Walmart headquarters in Bentonville, AR now though he was just a walmart truckdriver when they met. He is still good looking, with black hair, blue eyes, height 6'6" and a little lisp. :) Now why would that strike me as sooooo psychic? Cause my cards NEVER tell someone they're meeting a guy that's tall, dark and handsome. It's a cliche, not something you really see that often. I'd never seen it before in my cards. She laughed through her tears thanking me for trying to cheer her up when I read it. But she has to admit that I was right when the matter comes up now. :)


b) Why would you want to be able to do things like that anyway
Why would I want to utilize my psychic ability? For the same reason you want to utilize your physical ability, your mental ability, your singing ability, the abilities you received through education.... people like to do what they're good at. People like to use the tools God gave em. What kind of gratitude would you be showing for the gifts of your body, mind, voice, education, etc. if you never took them out and played with them, if you never took them out and shared them with others?

I love everything God gave me. I prove it by using and playing with every bit of it. Any gratitude that doesn't include using and playing with the thing you're supposedly grateful for... is false gratitude. I am many, many inappropriate and unacceptable things. But I am not a liar and I am far from ungrateful. :)

Hope this answers your question. :)

[lolliedotcom]

Unfortunately, whilst many over the years I don't get these delightful events every day. Many people do claim to have trained themselves to be able to do this with varying degrees of success. I have tried and had a little success but I wouldn't claim to be unusually psychic or clairvoyant if i may use those labels for these sort of phenomena.

It would be interesting to have lollie's point of view...Imagine a world where no one used their legs. Imagine if we all just pulled them along with us everywhere we went. Imagine that when babies tried to stand up and walk, we slithered over to them and said, "Oh now, honey, stop that, don't do that. It can't be done at all, and if it can be, then it's evil, it's from the devil. Now you just sit right back down. There that's a good baby. :)"

Now look at the world we live in. When a baby first tries to talk, it sounds impossible. Yet we keep on encouraging them with our attention and smiles and loving words.... it takes forever and we never give up, we never lose faith, we just keep on keeping on.

When they try to walk, it's even more impossible than learning how to talk. How many times does a baby fall down before they take their first two steps in a row? It's in the thousands if not the tens of thousands. But do we give up, no. Why? Because no one gave up on us, because we've never seen people give up on their new baby learning how to walk. Day after day we give them more and more attention and encouragement for their seemingly wasted efforts. "Come on, you can do it. That's it, get back up, try again. That's a boy!!!"

Yet what happens the first time a toddler shares their imagination with their parents? "Oh honey, you're just imagining things. Stop that. Don't do that."

To me that explains very simply why it is we all have psychic ability but in most of us it's been stunted with disinterest and discouragement.

What makes me different? I put myself to sleep all of my childhood by imagining I was riding first my trike and then as I got older, my bike. I was getting a lot of imagination exercise and no one was stopping me or even trying to stop me. Imagination/visualization is the gateway to psychic information. If we treated it in our children the same way we treat their verbal and physical abilities - we'd all be a lot more psychic than I am and I'm pretty damn good at it.

That's my perspective. :)

[Neurotic1]

You know Lollie, I've been following the discussion in this forum with interest and the thought came to me that you are obsessing over winning the lottery. It seems to me (and forgive me I may be wrong) that there are many better ways to demonstrate your abilities than this if what you want to achieve is psychic enlightenment for people. You could, for example, get involved in a scientific trial and make some predictions. After all, even if you did win the lottery, there will always be the 'well somebody had to win it' opinions and there may even be those who think that the lottery was rigged if you win more than once. Besides, there are many people who would be just falling over themselves to give you money if you could prove that psychic abilities are genuine. James Randy is one example. In fact, if you do have the abilities you claim and you used it to win the lottery, then surely most people would not want to learn how to be psychic for the other positive benefits it can bring - they would all be knocking on your door to find out how they too can win the lottery! Have you tried meditating on this issue without the ego side of yourself in place (i dont mean that offensively btw) and truly examining your motives and the consequences of what you hope for? It seems that this discussion has moved from NLP and hypnosis influencing psychic experience to how we can help Lollie win the lottery and become famous for it. Don't get me wrong I hope you do achieve what you want but as someone wise once said, be careful what you ask for....

Take care

[skip]

Interesting, very interesting.

And why shouldnt the thread turn towards helping Lolly wint the lottery?

How different is it really from our helping someone make better grades, or having confidence, or stopping smoking, or getting bigger tits?

I find it fascinating that when something is involved, that has to do with money, or 'true love', or 'motherhood'; we suddenly discover that we have deep set unknown taboos associated with it.

Look at Lollie. He wants to win the lottery. If Lolly had asked for a larger penis, there would have been little discussion.

But it was not just money, it was 'easy money'.

And our 'puritan work ethic', you know the one we didnt realize we have, kicked in and said, "If you dont work hard for it, you dont deserve it."

I personally would like to find the person who foisted that on us, and kick them squarely in the *****! Because they have caused more misery than 'Eve' did with her apple.

In almost all of my trainings I ask the question, "Who among us deserves all the money they are being paid?" Very few people raise their hands. Then I say, "OK you take what you deserve, and give me the remainder. That way you can feel good, and I can feel good, because I know I deserve everything I get and more. I will use it well." Very few are willing to do that. Wonder why, if they dont deserve it? It kicks their limiting belief squarely in the *****, and that's a plus.

So what I ask is the problem with Lolly wanting to win the lottery, for any reason?

skip

[Merlin]

Neurotic1,

>You could, for example, get involved in a scientific trial and make some predictions.

It's been done and "proven" by others.

>Besides, there are many people who would be just falling over themselves to give you money if you could prove that psychic abilities are genuine. James Randy is one example.

Nope.
It's been proven to him over and over.
He just wiggles, squirms a bit and holds fast to his denials.

Since such skills have been proven, why haven't you beaten down Lollie's door?
In fact, why do you stil disbelieve?

[EC]

I agree Skip,

What's wrong with Lollie winning the lottery?

So Lollie, I just tuned into this thread and see that it is long-running, has anything changed in your ability to overcome the money block you initially talked about ? Can you read yourself ? and, without re-reading the entire thread, seems I ran across that you had visited a hypnotist with no luck. What was the bad luck there ?

EC

[welshguymikey]

I've been reading for myself and others for 30 years. I've seen the guys in person that I said in the cards would show up. I've got tons of examples, here's one:

I told a stringbean 18 yr old with a head full of bright auburn, Diana Ross frizz bigger than she was, that it didn't matter none of the guys wanted her in her high school, cause in 8 months she was going to meet her husband and he was tall, dark, handsome and had a slight speech defect. he would think she was the sexiest, most beautiful woman alive.

His name is XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. They have two children. He's pretty high up in the Walmart headquarters in Bentonville, AR now though he was just a walmart truckdriver when they met. He is still good looking, with black hair, blue eyes, height 6'6" and a little lisp. :) Now why would that strike me as sooooo psychic? Cause my cards NEVER tell someone they're meeting a guy that's tall, dark and handsome. It's a cliche, not something you really see that often. I'd never seen it before in my cards. She laughed through her tears thanking me for trying to cheer her up when I read it. But she has to admit that I was right when the matter comes up now. :)

Why would I want to utilize my psychic ability? For the same reason you want to utilize your physical ability, your mental ability, your singing ability, the abilities you received through education.... people like to do what they're good at. People like to use the tools God gave em. What kind of gratitude would you be showing for the gifts of your body, mind, voice, education, etc. if you never took them out and played with them, if you never took them out and shared them with others?

I love everything God gave me. I prove it by using and playing with every bit of it. Any gratitude that doesn't include using and playing with the thing you're supposedly grateful for... is false gratitude. I am many, many inappropriate and unacceptable things. But I am not a liar and I am far from ungrateful. :)

Hope this answers your question. :)
ok i dont want to sound like i am attacking ur beliefs here im only questioning them, i used to believe the same as you, in pyscics and magic ect but i dont nemore,not saying i believe in science either, to be truthful i believe in me and nothing else. But a tall dark stranger with a speach deficit who is handsome? tall dark stranger who is handsome, well lets be honest thats just a stereo type and very common i know lots of tall dark ppl who are good loooking, who has a speach deficit, maybe that was just chance or maybe u doign they cards didnt predict it but encouraged it to happen, SHe meets a tall dark stranger with a speech defecit, she is fascinated by him becasue accordign to ur cards he is the one, her fascination intriques him and they eventually get married. Now lets take out the cards, what may have happened then? she meets a tall dark stranger with a speach deficit, so whats the big deal? hes just liek any other bloke, she shows no interest so they dont get together.

[j0hnny#]

yeh, I remember a hypnotist once telling me in a discussion we had after a session we had that involved the topic of the Tibetan book of the Dead that I would probably come across some more stuf about the book and about Tibetan dream yoga... I didn't.... well not until, well now, really..... have just looked it up and seems there are some pretty interesting things to learn on Lucid dreaming... So I suppose if you are prepared to wait long enough anything is possible. How about this Lollie... you will win the lottery, when it becomes your natural ability to do so. That is how you tie shoelaces after all, once you have broken down the process and practiced it for a bit. And how do you avoid being hit by a car when you are crossing to the other side of town? People have aptitudes to excel in all sorts of skills. Think of successful sportsmen and women.. those in a league of their own, effortless. I know a dude, who told me that the secret to getting what you want is to have in mind what you are achieving a particular end for, make it your obsession, what you are doing it for... so you have a particular outcome, which cannot be done consciously. In fact, he told me, the more you time spend shifting your attention into other ends, and onto higher order purposes, the better. You know you can do it, and you want to do it like you drive a car over long journeys. So what are you thinking about when you are driving the car? How to perform the actions involved or what will you do when you get where you are going? I remember my mum gave me a shot of her car once to drive on a back road between Cawdor and Culloden (I didn't and still don't have a licence). Travelling down those narrow roads was pretty intense, cars coming along. She told me to just be concerned with where I was going and other drivers will be concerned with where they are going. So I focused on the road ahead and got to where I was going. At a junction my mum gave me three or four commands at once, and I had to put on the breaks. Slow down, check your mirrors, put on the indicator, change into first and turn left.... in the space of 3-5 secs that, for me, was overload, and I swerved about a bit at the corner and put on the breaks... shotty over:). Now for anyone who knows how to drive it is a piece of p*ss, as they say where I come from. So easy to lose track of a situation when you are not competent at what you are doing. But when you have the skill, its like riding a bike.. easy. I think that most people don't know what they are capable of or realise their full potential. In a lot of things the efforts of many to do what needs to be done to find whatever it is that need to be found for this or that purpose makes things clearer once you can find a way to do it. Albert Einstein solved all his problems this way. And can you believe at school they thought he was too much of a day dreamer! A total waste of time. Just goes to show.. others opinions can have little to do with a child's potentials. If you have an ability, you have an ability.

Johnny

[Neurotic1]

So what I ask is the problem with Lolly wanting to win the lottery, for any reason?


Skip I didn't say there was a problem with that:) I just suggested there are other ways to achieve the same core purpose(s) lollie originally expressed. I think there is very little association in this world between the amount of money deserved and the amount earned. The more rich everyone is, the better. Ideally (for me) the World would function without money.



>You could, for example, get involved in a scientific trial and make some predictions.

It's been done and "proven" by others.

Do you have the references I could look at at where 'psychic predicts and wins lottery' has been published please? I would like to see them.


>Besides, there are many people who would be just falling over themselves to give you money if you could prove that psychic abilities are genuine. James Randy is one example.

Nope.
It's been proven to him over and over.
He just wiggles, squirms a bit and holds fast to his denials.
Now I totally agree with you on this. You could introduce James Randy to God and he'd probably deny it:) . OK so bad example but we need more than anecdotal evidence. My posts here should make it clear that I don't deny this is possible, indeed I think it is. To achieve what lollie wants -i.e; to spread the word that lollie is a genuine psychic and can win money that way, he would need to convince many people who like good, reproducible evidence, rather than being told, anecdotally, that this has happened in an 'uncontrolled' (i use this term in the scientific sense) event. Unfortunately and fortunately at the same time, many people in positions of influence don't listen to anything unless there is good, hard, well constructed, documented evidence. In the Western world, most people hold this sort of 'scientific trial' evidence in more regard than less well constructed anecdotes. I concede that this is by no means the only way to make the desired events for lollie happen indeed not all scientific studies are good evidence but at least we can analyse them to understand why they are not. As you'll gather from my post, it was only a suggestion. Perhaps we don't need to go on scientifically monitored evidence and just need to trust peoples anecdotes but my concern is that this might lead to us accepting a lot of chaff with the wheat?? I am sure others will feel differently.

[Merlin]

Neurotic1,

If you want more 'scientific' research, start with the
Proceedings of the Institute of Electrical & Electronic Engineers (IEEE) from 1976
Look for the article by Puthoff and Targ

[Neurotic1]

Neurotic1,

Since such skills have been proven, why haven't you beaten down Lollie's door?
In fact, why do you stil disbelieve?
Merlin, it seems we often misunderstand each other's postings lol.
I DO believe. That should have been clear in my previous postings.

[lolliedotcom]

It's less about the money than about being heard. And ya'll illustrate repeatedly how hard it is for me to be heard. I have important information that the drug companies would kill to keep quiet if it wasn't so easy. But it is amazingly easy to keep it quiet cause I shout it from my site loud as a woman can shout and I explain it here and everywhere I go... and it's like almost everyone is deaf with eyes closed so they can't hear no matter what.

Here are things I will make sure people hear when I win the lotteries. (Not just one lottery, I'm shooting for five at once. Anyone can win a lottery. but when four lotteries in the same week have the same winning numbers as the powerball I've got a ticket on.... then even Randy what's his name and Penn and Teller will have to go.... whew, now that's a good trick! ) That will show folks that even though I'm only a phone psychic, I might just have something worth hearing.

I'm going to share with the world that negative emotions are gifts from God when we utilize them the way they were designed to be utilized, that God was never the cruel jackass he looked like, sitting up there all pompous and holy while millions of us suffered negative emotions to our deaths. Good news, God is not a jackass. It's great that man created drugs to deaden the emotions of people who don't know how to use them. But God is greater cause the negative emotions he gave us and that drug companies deaden for us are incredibly useful tools to help us steer our lives in healthier, happier directions when we know how to use them.

See that paragraph right above this one? Do you know what it said? Probably not. See? No one can hear me. Too bad I'm not nude. I don't think can see me either. I might as well be nude and dancing on your keyboard if you can see me no better than you can hear what I'm saying. What a challenge!

I'll share what really works to prevent suicide which is quite a bit different from what is supposed to work.

I'll share the one thing that Jesus taught over and over, far more than anything else and that not one minister or priest can tell you cause they're all too busy listening to Paul instead of really paying attention to what Jesus said. (Pssst... it is vitally important and it isn't about love.) Go ahead and cheat, go read the red print and just count. That's all ya gotta do.... count. Guess our spiritual leaders aren't exactly math experts.

Nother little item of interest I'll be sharing.... The reason even heavy kids like playground equipment and we can hardly keep healthy adults on the work out track.... is because playground equipment gave us a free ride for every thing we did.... we were rewarded consistently and darn near constantly.... climb the ladder, then you slide, work your legs in the swings a bit, then just glide, run around the merry go round and jump on for the free ride. See? Every one of them gave pleasure in return for the exercise. EyeToy does the same thing. It just needs to be usable by heavy people.

That's why I wrote my hundredth letter to the Sony people yesterday reminding them we are in the midst of an Obesity Epidemic and Sony is still making EYE TOY games (video games you play with your body instead of your thumbs) only designed to draw kids too hyper to play sit down games. I write and tell them, "give us an option of NOT jumping so your games don't damage our joints. Their newest game is such fabulous fun, but after an hour of anti grav, the next day the only part of me that was almost too sore to move was about a four inch square just below the backs of my knees. I tell them we need Eye Toy games that work out all of the muscle groups equally. The month they bring out that game and market it as a tool to enjoyably fight obesity.... at least four teens who were heading towards weight loss surgery will change their minds. That'll be the first month. Then it will snowball.

My thinking is, when I break the psychic four minute mile, I'll have at least 15 minutes where folks can actually hear what I'm saying. But not only that... money buys ANYTHING, including your ears and eyes. I'll run a contest where at least 100 people will win $5,000, some for writing lyrics that teach things from the "Use the Blues" and "romance" sections of my site. I'll give ten $100,000 prizes to the favorite charities of ten hit-makers who take any of the winning lyrics and turn them into a hit song. Then it won't just be shouting from a website hiding within a 4 billion site book we call the internet.

Then people will hear me.... and after all of that, surely someone will help me make a movie... a woman that accomplishes all of that - that's movie worthy. And THEN this king kong sized monkey will be off my back and I can live just like the rest of you. I will have answered my magnificent obsession and all the naysayers and rain on other people's parades people will either appreciate and use their negative emotions or choke on their own bitter bile. At that point finally everyone will have the choice. Because everyone will have heard how to use their negative emotions so well that they can choose to use and appreciate them instead of just suffer them.

Can doubters at least notice and admit that a person who's caught this much friendly and not so friendly "help" is usually a lot more upset than I am? Can you admit that after eight years of the same goal and failing, failing, failing.... I'm still not giving up out of frustration, depression and discouragement? Gee, wonder if that might be because I learned how to use the gifts of negative emotions the way God intended us to use them?

Why? Why would anyone become obsessed with getting people to hear what she's saying? Cause I get off on saving lives and it's just like a real life video game... as long as there are so many left teetering on the edge of choosing between the pain of life and the pain of death..... I am obsessed. I am determined to save as many of them as I can and far more than anyone else. So what? I'm a 51 year old single phone psychic. What have I got to do that's more important? More fun? More challenging? Better practise for becoming an angel some day? Tell me, cause I can't think of a single thing. What would YOU have me do if you were running my life? Only remember, if you get to run mine, fair is fair, I get to run yours. :)

Not a one of you would be upset with me if I were obsessed with crocheting, church socials, a little singing group.... and not one of those activities saves a single life. I've saved hundreds already.... and some folks want to give me a hard time. Proof positive that where little is known, little is required... and when one requires so little of themself, naturally they get upset cause I expect so much more. Nothing inspires me like people telling me I can't and I shouldn't. You guys are jetfuel to my spirit. Thank you. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

One last thing, I only decided to win the Powerball after I went to NY last May and tried to glue myself to the NASDAQ building to be heard just from the weird news angle. The powerball was hardly my first attempt at getting heard, it is the last. By the way, don't ever trust super glue. It isn't all that super.

[Brian Carr]

Hello, lolliedotcom.

It is not my intention to diminish you, but your self-assuredness gives me pause.

I wonder, who designated you the one to pursue such lofty goals? Why are you annointed the emissary to bring clarity to the ignorant masses and light to a darkened world?

You say you want the best therapist. Doesn't everyone? What makes you any more deserving than anyone else? Surely there is someone, of far lesser means than you, with far greater needs than reality permits them to receive?

You seem a person of extremes, my friend. Perhaps you should be wary your extremes don't strand you in delusion.

Brian

[Merlin]

Just a thought Lollie,

When people shatter the paradigms of others, the reaction is seldom acceptance.
The more common reaction is *kill the messenger*
Crucifiction comes to mind.

There are nuts in all countries & passing laws doesn't stop them.

[Neurotic1]

Just a thought Lollie,

When people shatter the paradigms of others, the reaction is seldom acceptance.
The more common reaction is *kill the messenger*
Crucifiction comes to mind.

There are nuts in all countries & passing laws doesn't stop them.
Very goof points Merlin.
That's basically what I was trying to say when I said..

It seems to me (and forgive me I may be wrong) that there are many better ways to demonstrate your abilities than this if what you want to achieve is psychic enlightenment for people. You could, for example, get involved in a scientific trial and make some predictions. After all, even if you did win the lottery, there will always be the 'well somebody had to win it' opinions and there may even be those who think that the lottery was rigged if you win more than once.but maybe I wasn't quite as succinct as yourself.

[Neurotic1]

sorry i can't edit my posts... goof should read *good! lol

[lolliedotcom]

Hello, lolliedotcom.

I wonder, who designated you the one to pursue such lofty goals? Why are you annointed the emissary to bring clarity to the ignorant masses and light to a darkened world?

BrianAll of us are called to something or other. Some are called to be firemen, some to be dentists, others teachers. It's a feeling as clear as the urge to push in the delivery room and as rare. Like an orgasm, you can never be sure you had one until you do, but once you do - there is NO doubt. And from examining the pathways of people who recognise and go after their calling... I also know how to find your calling, try it and see how well it works.... Write down the three most painful traumas of your life, your three greatest talents, your three greatest skills, your three greatest passions and leave that list lying around. After three days your calling will !pop! out at you like those 3d picture within a picture thingies.

I had a dentist in Texas who became one because the greatest trauma in his life was when he was 10 yrs old, he was taken to a sadistic dentist. He decided that very day his job was to grow up to be a gentle dentist so he could protect some people for the rest of his life by treating them himself.

The host of America's Most Wanted found his calling in finding the bad guys after his son was kidnapped, brutalized and murdered.

I learned about incest the worst way, my father was drunk, I was 11 and we were alone. I knew if I told my mother, she'd kill my father, she'd go to prison, my brother and sister and I would be separated. We would all be alone. So I couldn't tell. I spent that summer in the library in the grown-up section. I was searching for what to do with all the gifts that had come with that afternoon... the gifts of terror, rage, despair, guilt.... whew! Brian, I was loaded up with questions and I was a smart kid. I knew how to use dictionaries and read above my own level and I had a high reading level already. But there wasn't a thing in those books that even hinted at what to do with them except medicate, suffer, swallow....

Then when I was 40 years old, I found the answers I'd searched so hard for. But it was too late. My mother was already dead. I was never going to be able to share this with her to reduce her suffering. My kids were already raised and on their own. I'd already done a masterful job of teaching them how to suffer and make others suffer negative emotional states. Finding the answers too late was almost worse than not finding them at all.

There you see the three greatest traumas in my life.

My talents and passions? I am a mad social scientist.... I don't do it for money, I do it to find answers to prevent others from all that unnecessary suffering, screwing up so much because of it and passing it on to their kids. I couldn't do it for me and mine, but no one else is doing it for others, so I have to. It is my passion.

I don't give up. I am Horton. This is my whoville. I love not being a monster and what kind of a monster would Horton have been if he'd have given up?

I am one of the best real psychics I've ever met, read about or heard tell of. And I love doing it. I live to impress myself and nothing else does it for me like being psychic. Well sometimes my indomitable spirit and courage impress me but nowhere near daily. I live and breath on my daily feedback at my job. :D

A couple more legs under my table of belief... when I took the wechsler, I blew their minds cause I gave them correct answers that weren't in their answer book, but were clearly correct anyways. There was nothing in their manuals to tell them what to do when a person did that, as if they thought it couldn't be done. The woman testing me was almost spooked by the fact that one of the answers was more correct than any of the answers they had for it. lol I used to think that meant my i.q. spiked higher than others, not so. It only meant it spikes further out to the sides. I'm sure it couldn't if I wasn't a tad extreme. You're right Brian. I'm pretty far out on most any bell curve you can bring to the table.

I'm right too.

Look:
people don't kill people,
guns don't kill people,
people with guns hardly ever kill people,
but people with negative emotions spiking
into the stratosphere and guns within reach?
A lot of them kill people.

So if a lot of the population learns how to utilize their negative emotional states in healthier ways, their emotions don't spike, they don't care to kill people, including themselves by the way. People murder themselves more often than they murder others.

Children who suffer incest must be taught immediately how to utilize their emotional states so they help them heal instead of just making them sicker.
People who are being medicated for depression must also be taking classes in how to put it to good use quicker so it can be turned off far sooner so their meds can be reduced. Deadening alarm clocks God gave us to help us take corrective actions isn't an entirely great idea.
Let everyone have guns, so long as everyone in the family has become fairly proficient at utilizing their states.
And the cool part? If you hadn't slapped me with some great questions some in here would never have found the pathway to find their own callings.

Brian, I respect your skepticism and raise you a calling. Whaddaya got Darlin'? (smiiiile)

[lolliedotcom]

To achieve what lollie wants -i.e; to spread the word that lollie is a genuine psychic and can win money that way, he would need to convince many people who like good, reproducible evidence, rather than being told, anecdotally, that this has happened in an 'uncontrolled' (i use this term in the scientific sense) event.
Neur,

You're wrong. I know I'm long winded, but you're skimming and missing what it is I want. Please read carefully:

The only reason I give a crap about anyone thinking i'm psychic is because I have extremely important information about something a zillion times more important than me or anyone else being psychic... (catching breath here) Read this paragraph again slowly while I get a sip of water.

Now Neur, this next paragraph is the real meat and potatoes of the issue so don't you skim it.... ya lazy thing, read it. This is too complex for short responses. Besides you might find out what my gender is if you read it.

No one will listen until I get them past the facts that I have no education, no scientific evidence, no proof that I can prevent suicides, murders, help children recover emotionally from molestations far better..... Nothing in the world I could do would get them to listen in spite of those things plus me being a creature lower than a used car salesman turned Politician.... a phone psychic. Nothing. Zip. Nada.... except winning five lotteries in the same week with the same numbers... the woman who breaks the psychic four minute mile.... well for 15 minutes they'll listen to her.... and I'll have the money to buy the rest of their attention. I explained about that in detail below, so scroll to find out. I'll also show people how to spend that kinda money so it brings joy instead of just destroying a person's life. There's actually quite a few things I need to share when I get there.



Especially that the lottery was my last choice in 9 or 10 years of various pathways. I hate to admit it, but it's the one that will work.

[Merlin]

Hi Lollie,

Just a side note...
The better way to deal with negative emotions is simply not to have them.

Hypnosis, NLP, TLT are excellent for removing the emotion from the memory.

[lolliedotcom]

Just a thought Lollie,

When people shatter the paradigms of others, the reaction is seldom acceptance.
The more common reaction is *kill the messenger*
Crucifiction comes to mind.

There are nuts in all countries & passing laws doesn't stop them.
Merlin, you are such a delight. Thank you. The others strenthen my resolve, but you're the one that makes me feel I'm not entirely unheard. And the cool way you say the things you say is music to my ears. :)

[lolliedotcom]

Hi Lollie,

Just a side note...
The better way to deal with negative emotions is simply not to have them.

Hypnosis, NLP, TLT are excellent for removing the emotion from the memory.
I'm more concerned about using them wisely in the future.... they're alarms and like other alarm clocks, things go very badly when they are not utilized. People that learn to ignore their "I'm hungry," or the "ding ding ding" of the car telling you you've left your lights on, or the alarm clock by the bed reminding that you must get ready and go to work or risk losing everything.... Wind up overweight, with a dead battery and without a job which winds up putting them on the street.

I'm wanting people to know they can learn to use their emotional alarm clocks so wisely they never have to get much louder than that ding, ding, ding.

See what I'm saying?

[lolliedotcom]

People that learn to ignore their "I'm hungry," or the "ding ding ding" of the car telling you you've left your lights on, or the alarm clock by the bed reminding that you must get ready and go to work or risk losing everything.... Wind up overweight, with a dead battery and without a job which winds up putting them on the street.
Correction.... People that learn to ignore their "I'm full," alarm clocks wind up fat. People that learn to ignore their "I'm hungry," alarms wind up anorexic.

[Merlin]

Hi Lollie,

>See what I'm saying?

Yes, I just disagree.
I've not met anyone who is overweight because of ignoring the 'i'm full alarm'
It's because of self image (emotion), security (emotion) or similar. Releasing the control the emotion has on the person allows the change.

Memory works fine for making wise choices in the future even without the emotional charge.

[Brian Carr]

I learned about incest the worst way, my father was drunk, I was 11 and we were alone. I knew if I told my mother, she'd kill my father, she'd go to prison, my brother and sister and I would be separated. We would all be alone. So I couldn't tell. I spent that summer in the library in the grown-up section. I was searching for what to do with all the gifts that had come with that afternoon... the gifts of terror, rage, despair, guilt.... whew! Brian, I was loaded up with questions and I was a smart kid. I knew how to use dictionaries and read above my own level and I had a high reading level already. But there wasn't a thing in those books that even hinted at what to do with them except medicate, suffer, swallow....

Then when I was 40 years old, I found the answers I'd searched so hard for. But it was too late. My mother was already dead. I was never going to be able to share this with her to reduce her suffering. My kids were already raised and on their own. I'd already done a masterful job of teaching them how to suffer and make others suffer negative emotional states. Finding the answers too late was almost worse than not finding them at all.

There you see the three greatest traumas in my life. Lollie,

It takes courage to reveal such personal matters as forthrightly as you have. I am honored, and I thank you.

Brian, I respect your skepticism and raise you a calling. Whaddaya got Darlin'? (smiiiile) What, indeed?

[Brian Carr]

The better way to deal with negative emotions is simply not to have them. Negative emotions are a standard and often necessary part of existence, whether for humans or any other type of animal. What are the implications for simply doing away with them?

I tend to agree with lollie.

Brian

[Merlin]

Brian,

I am not suggesting to not experience the emotion.
What I'm saying is that the emotional charge attached to a ten year old memory has no current value.
Emotions are only of imediate value. They needn't be kept for years.

The emotion will often interfere with your physiology/healing processes.

Those of us who work to resolve Parkinson's, Diabetes, Cancer, ALS, MS, etc. have found that releasing those old emotions are the primary solution.

[Neurotic1]

Hi Merlin & Lollie

I would tend to go with a mixture of your opinions.
I think many people are overweight because they ignore the sensations of being satiated when they have eaten well. Sometimes there is a delay for the physical sensation of hunger to disappear after eating and so people tend to habitually over eat. Some people as children are taught that they must finish everything on their plate and so they always do, even when the portions are too big - hence they habitually evereat. Some people eat a diet of foods with excessives calories and yet little impact on hunger. Some have emotional and other psychological problems which lead them to over-eat. Others have a combination of some of the above and some people may cross over from one to another (eg; they develop emotional problems through weight gain through habitually ignoring the body's subtle 'i'm eaten adequately' signal. Of course there are some people who have hormonal imbalances such as hypothyroidism. IMO there are a whole list of reasons why people overeat and/or become obese which includes both of the causes you both cite.

[Brian Carr]

Brian,

I am not suggesting to not experience the emotion.
What I'm saying is that the emotional charge attached to a ten year old memory has no current value.
Emotions are only of imediate value. They needn't be kept for years.

The emotion will often interfere with your physiology/healing processes.

Those of us who work to resolve Parkinson's, Diabetes, Cancer, ALS, MS, etc. have found that releasing those old emotions are the primary solution. That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification! :)

[lolliedotcom]

I am not suggesting to not experience the emotion.
What I'm saying is that the emotional charge attached to a ten year old memory has no current value.
Emotions are only of imediate value. Good point Merlin, Waiting ten years to deal with an emotion is extraordinarily unhealthy. My purpose in life is to make sure everyone knows how to use them as they happen. For example, the terror alarm I kept getting concerning living in the same house with my father was telling me to get educated and skilled to deal with the situation.... I actually did that in a number of ways, I gained 60#, I never allowed myself to be within reach of my father or in the same room with him alone, I never went to sleep till I heard him snoring. I was never molested again.... but none of the books told me that after I'd effectively utilized anxiety that it was up to me to turn it off, so the state itself didn't become unhealthier than the event that set it off.

I'm going to make sure people have heard of the steps to using each of their negative emotions.

We always hear about "controlling" negative emotions. It's as if there are no masters of utilizing negative states. It's as if Ghandi, MLK, JFK, and Mother Teresa never existed. Imagine if they'd put off correctly using their states for years. One thing is sure. They wouldn't be our heros.

[lolliedotcom]

:) Brian, we have break through. Whew! I had raised you a calling and asked you what you had, in reply you said

Lollie,

What, indeed?
In my less than succinct post I gave a recipe for finding one's calling. I'd love to see what would happen if you used it and found out what yours is. None is greater or lesser than any other. "My calling" is like "my dog" - all dogs are wonderful. The thing that makes mine most wonderful to me is that it is mine, it fits me. I'm convinced we've all got one, some more than one. I'd love to help you find yours. It's a wonderful moment, though it doesn't always feel that way when you first see it.

[Special Guest]

Anyone win the lotto yet?

Here's my 2 cent piece on the whole lottery winning idea.

Couple possibilities.

Either...

1) It is possible to predict the numbers correctly (Psychic foreknowledge, akashic record, mass consciousness style etc etc see http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=126649#121)

or

2) It is possible to will the numbers to your choosing (Uri Geller style perhaps? Maybe someone working along the same lines as what he demonstrates. i.e. influencing seemingly external objects by willful concentration.)

or

3) Both are impossible (www.skepdic.com)

[solaris152000]

Agreed, tbh lollie. I think this thread is just an advert for you. Cleverly disguised.

[Sponge]

In my belief, all psychic abilities come down to one thing:

You remember times when your "ability" proved succesful, and you forget the times you were totally wrong.

[Special Guest]

Can't be very cleaverly disguised if you figured it out Solar lol But anyway, flag Lollie.

What are you for then? Either you believe that such things are possible, or you believe that they are impossible. Can anyone say that they have had the experience of willing something to happen by thought alone? Have any of you ever predicted something seemingly unpredictable?

I think you're either a...

Uri Geller - Can change probabilities
Edgar Cayce - Can perceive probabilities
Above Average Joe - Does both to a limited degree/believes that it may be possible for others/but also believes that it is not possible for himself
Average Joe - Does both to a limited degree/but thinks he can do neither


Sponge - Isn't that how people learn to be good at what they do anyway?

On that note, how about 'You remember the times when you were wrong and proved to yourself that you had no "ability", and you forget the times you were completely right' ?

i think that you get what you focus upon - consciously or unconsciously

[11th Guess]

So perhaps it is possible to utilize hypnosis/nlp to tap the unused layers or parts of mind which allow for the usage of so-called "supernatural" powers.

Here's a couple pages of interest:

http://twm.co.nz/teleg_PK.htm

http://twm.co.nz/actdis_Hass.htm


Dont close the door before taking a look i say...

[lolliedotcom]

Agreed, tbh lollie. I think this thread is just an advert for you. Cleverly disguised.

Yes you've nailed me on that one darlin'. I come in here to get 99.9% of you to think i'm nuts, a fraud, a fake, without any directions whatsoever as to how to contact me at my job for a reading. Gee, guess I must have flunked marketing 101 before I became a psychic, ya think?

Look. I am what I am. I do what I do. And I could hide all that in a closet and be oh so accepted and admired just for my personal site which has nothing to do with my career as a professional psychic. So why don't I? Cause I'm not living any part of my life in a closet, and over the years of being who I am, I've developed a thick skin to what others think, and i've always been mostly concerned with what I think. And i really wanted advice and said, screw the odds of anyone of that board being able and willing to assist me, I'll ask anyway.

And what did I lose really? Perhaps the respect of people who don't know me and I'll never meet? I didn't consider that any kind of a tangible loss. Now had I been too cowardly to enter the frey for the chance one of you might help me.... well that would have caused me to lose self-respect and that simply would never happen. In 1981 I lived through a week long garage sale in July in Oklahoma - (high heat and higher humidity) with the hatefulest person I've ever known in my life. After you live through something like that, you learn to let naysayer's and belittler's words go right over you like water off a duck's back. Not a one of you will ever learn how to be as cruel as Rita. She was a special gift. Not much appreciated at the time. But good for me none-the-less.

As for the one who mentioned psychics only remember when they're right and never when they're wrong - I can buy that as a generalization. And I still like what Billy Bob Thornton who's mother is a real psychic said, "I think disbelieving in something just because you have never experienced it yourself is the heighth of arrogance."

But with your life experiences it's natural for you to believe what you believe. First you buy into the 'see's all, know's all' definition of psychics that the fakes wrote. Like anything on this planet is perfect. ha. I don't do that. I remember the future. I never expect to be perfect. I make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes remembering the past too. But my psychic memory of the future is better than my memory of the past. That's probably because I practise it a lot more.

I've been here 52 years. I'm not a new-ager, you can look at the free-est, biggest personal site in the world and you won't find that or a pitchwoman for my career site - you won't find any link from Lollie.com to my work site, not in 300 pages. I just never trusted anyone else's certainty about things without trying them out myself. I never trust experts. If you think you're a skeptic about psychics in general, you oughta see me. I never trust a psychic till I see with my own eyes they're right.

You don't have to trust me or the experts, here's a little thing you can do yourself that will prove you can telepathically communicate with some insects. (lol oh lord how crazy you will think I am till you try this and it works!) Next time you're at the lake, pond or stream where there are damselflies, you stand there in the water, and you begin to think to them, "damsel flies, come play with me. It's okay, I won't hurt you." Move gently in the water, and pretty soon here will come a damsel fly, oh a coincidence you'll think when there's only one of them, but keep on calling them and pretty soon when you have five or six of them sitting around on you, so close you can see all the details in the design God built into them it will bring tears to your eyes - you'll begin to wonder if you're crazy, deluded or if just maybe I'm right.

To date, by doing just that, the most I've had on me at one time was 10 damsel flies, one dragonfly (they look huge and prehistoric next to a damselfly!) and one butterfly. My daughters, grandkids and best friend do the same thing for the fun of it just because it works.

I don't know what you do that makes you feel really cool, but for me, it's doing things that the majority of people believe can't be done. How often is the majority ever wrong? Once in a while? Sometimes? Often? I like to find out for myself.

But I will say this, communicating with damselflies has so far been a lot easier to learn than how to win that powerball. The operative words there being, 'so far.' And when I do, I'll have this record of the fact that it wasn't an accident. This thread is all the proof I'll need that this particular professional psychic made a decision to do it and found the path to do it. Then again it might just be considered the biggest coincidence you ever saw in your life.

Believe what you will, that's what I always do. And everyone thinks Jesus main lesson was love. Nay, nay, count. That's all you have to do is read the red letters and count. He taught over and over that belief had it's own power. You lay hands on someone and they're healed and the preachers will tell you "that person laying on hands didn't heal you, GOD healed you." Which is not at all what Jesus taught, over and over, he told them, it was YOUR belief that healed you. I guess those preachers thought he was just saying that to be polite. I didn't. I took it like it must have been a pretty important message since it's the one he repeated the most often. But that's just me.

Lollie

[Terry (existing)]

Glad to see you are still following the goings on on this board Lolli. Don't take it to heart so, the only person who knows the truth of any statement you make is YOU, and the only person who needs to know is that same person.... One thing I can tell you for sure, and that is, if you don't try you will never know. Live the dream, or regret for ever, it isn't failure that is the problem, it is failing to try, and never knowing what might have been.....

[Makani]

Dear Lollie,

You asked for a good hypnotherapist/NLP/TLT person. If you contact the American Board of Hypnotherapists they'll tell you who is nearest you. Likewise the American Board of NLP and the Time Line Therapy Association. There are other good organizations; I just happen to know the reputation of these quite well and the modalities are integrated. Or attend a conference (ABH, NGH) near you and listen, ask, observe.

You are able to get what you ask for...a good reference without all the hoopla. As to whether you get the best? Who can tell? Sometimes I'm the best for one person and not someone else....sometimes I never know and neither does my client as it's really more about the effort he or she puts in and the unfolding of that work over... yup, time. I believe in three requisites for change: 1. the work of the therapist, the techniques and tools; 2. the focus of the client and 3. the follow through action of the client outside the therapy. It's all art and science, so I'd go for someone with strong training creds and, in true NLP style, assume they'll be the best therapist because you are the best client you can be. I'm a very good therapist (by training and results not ego) though too far from Tulsa, and anyone you select ought to assure you they are also more than competent. They would also be looking to assess you as a client who wants results, not just to be a client.

I use Time Line Therapy with every client. And yours is definitely an interesting case of "time".

Peace and best wishes!

As to remembering the future, for me time is just a big abstract loop. I have had clients heal current problems by going into the future where they "began".

[Nicholas]

hey Lolli

I'm sorry if i'm boring anyone, but i'd just like to explain the reality of the situation when predicting the future, which may put a crimpe in your plans.

This is by no means an attack, or start of an argument so please read on.

There are two ways the universe could work;
1 Newtonian - If you could know the position and velocity of every particle in the universe, you could accurately predict their positions until the end of time.
2 Quantum - There are completely random fluctuations in the universe, making it impossible to perfectly predict an outcome, eg radio-active decay.

Now if reality is the second is the case, then predicting the future is based on probability and is by no means a certain thing, which translates from positions and velocities of particles to the entire shape of the universe, making predicting the future impossible.

If reality is the first case, then by all means it is possible to predict the future. But here is the problem. It means the future is predetermined. So in order to pick the right numbers from a prediction you must see yourself doing so. In which case if you never see yourself winning, then you logically will not. (Unless your ability to predict the future is poor, in which case you may not see it comming, but it will be luck and not a prediction.) So in other words, if you don't predict yourself winning, then it will not happen.
In the case of you seeing someone dieing, you could not have changed the future anyway, if you had stopped them from dieing, they would not have done so, and therefor you would not have predicted it. The best you can hope for is you predicting that you will save someones life.

Sorry this is a little off topic, but i'm hoping it will at least put some clarity to any otherwise very complicated matter.

To make ammends; Sure hypnotism could help you enhance these images, but the laws of physics suggest otherwise (unless it was supposed to happen)

[Don]

Nicholas, why do you assume that the two ways you describe are the only ways possible? What if there's a third way, or a fourth or a fifth?

The Newtonians couldn't conceive of quantum mechanics, nor did they have the technology necessary to even begin to work with it. Why do you assume that we are at the top of the physics peak instead of just a foot up from the base of the mountain?

[Cassandra 8]

Nicholas, why do you assume that the two ways you describe are the only ways possible? What if there's a third way, or a fourth or a fifth? There already is a candidate, Don: The rather promising but mind-boggling string theory. If the theory describes, as quantum theory did, something we can subsequently verify by experiment, it'll be quite a day.

The Newtonians couldn't conceive of quantum mechanics, nor did they have the technology necessary to even begin to work with it. Why do you assume that we are at the top of the physics peak instead of just a foot up from the base of the mountain? It's not that quantum mechanics is in some way beter or more progressive than classical mechanics. They really describe different worlds.

The real problem is that you can't measure something smaller in size or shorter in duration than the Planck units. Physics is remarkably capable within those confines, however. For instance, it's possible to accurately isolate and manipulate a single electron. To put this into perspective, supposing the nucleus of an atom is an orange sat next to your computer. The nearest electron orbits at a distance of about 15km.

[Nicholas]

I don't think that we are at the peak of physics, however, either random occurances do happen, or they don't.
If they do, then universe is of a sort of Quantum nature (not specifically, but this is a generalisation of that state in this case).
If they don't happen then the universe is of newtonian nature, (again not specifically, but if you can measure the speed and position of all particles, then you can predict the future).

These two cases are polar opposites. If see an asteroid orbiting the sun, I can accurately predict where it will be in several hours time, but humans are far more complicated and rely of tiny electrical signals......Making predicting the future for them a far more complicated task.
Either you can or can't have random events, there's not inbetween, cause if you say you can have some random events and some predictable, then therefor, you can have random events.

You may not be convinced by that, and probably rightly so, as i am a poor debator, but until someone can find a third option, where neither random events nor non-random events occur, or somewhere between the universe exists, and the universe doesn't exist, then you'll have to stick with the one of the only two possible options.

When it comes to the idea of predicting in the newtonian model you are faced with the problems - If i see a friend get hit by a car 2 hours from now. I go stop it happening, so he didn't get hit by a car, so either, my prediction never happened in the first place, so i couldn't save him (which turns into an infinitly repeating loop), or it wasn't a prediction at all because it was never going to happen. The next option is that you see your friend crossing the road just it time. You shout 'look out', he stops turns round, then gets hit, all because you said look out. If you hadn't said it, it wouldn't of happened.
Take your pick. All of these suggest that the only worthwile prediction would be that of winning the lottery and seeing the numbers. In the prediction if you see the right numbers, then the likelyhood is you will also see yourself jumping up and down with joy, because you just won, because of your prediction.

[Nicholas]

Just like to point out I'm fully aware of string theory, and it's more of an expansion of quantum theory, than a replacement (it incorperates both relativity, and quantum mechanics). But it apparently cannot be proved, other than to disprove all other possibilities.
When stating quantum, and newtonian, i was not talking about the whole concept (i didn't want to bore people more than necessary), merely the fundamental difference, of probabilistic (to which string theory is also bound), and definite.
It will indeed be a great day, if string theory is proved, but unfortunately it will be the day when an infinite number of questions come to be, with no way of answering them.

[Cassandra 8]

If they don't happen then the universe is of newtonian nature, (again not specifically, but if you can measure the speed and position of all particles, then you can predict the future).Whoops :D

The Uncertainty Principle doesn't allow both. You can measure velocity or position of a particle, but not both because the act of observing a particle alters one when measuring the other.

Here's an interesting example using classical mechanics:

If the lights go out and you must find all the pool balls moving on a table, you can wait for them to crash into your hand and tell how fast and from what direction they were travelling when they bounced away, or you might send marbles after them and hear the clicks to tell you which position they were in when the marble hit their position and moved them slighty.

Yes, the universe is quantum. Or rather, quantum mechanics describes it on the subatomic level very well in terms of how probabilities change over time.

[Nicholas]

I am well aware of the Heisenburg Uncertanty Principal, which is why i say 'if you can measure', and not 'you can measure'.
The two examples of the heisenburg are. You have an electron with unknown velocity, and position. The smaller wavelength of light you use, the more accurately you can pinpoint its position, but it will influence the particle's velocity more than a long wavelength (which can less accurately determine position).
Send and electron through a small hole along the y axis. The smaller the hole, the more accurately you can get its position, but the more diffraction it undergoes, making your knowledge of its velocity in the x direction less accurate.

i think the equation is x.p(x) > h/2.pie, where . is multiply, x is the position of the particle in the x direction, and p(x) is its momentum in the x direction, and h is the plank constant.

Anyway cassandra, you're just getting pedantic now, in the newtonian veiw of the universe it is possible to measure all particles positions and velocities accurately. (I am just providing an option in physics for someone who believes they can predict the future, I do not buy into the newtonian model of the universe, and so neither do i beleive it is possible to predict the future. I was merely trying to give an objective veiwpoint on the situation, which would not discredit any such beliefes.)

[Cassandra 8]

Anyway cassandra, you're just getting pedantic now:eek: I'm shocked!

I might just be bored...:rolleyes:

[skip]

Nicolas and Cassandra,

Now no doubt you two can dazzle the crap out of me with your superior knoweledge of physics. I have no idea what you would want the crap for, but you are welcome to dazzel it out, if you like.

You certainly could (either of you) go spouting off on some esoteric line that would take me days to decipher, and longer to comprehend, whether I chose to believe it or not, not withstanding.

I know that I can decide to build a house. And thru time and effort, follow that intend, until I have a house, that myself, or others, can move into.

I know that I can take an idea, and begin thru various means, plant it into other peoples minds, until it becomes a 'reality', both in people's imaginations, and in fact.

I would appreciate either of you dumbing it down enough, to explain to a simple minded fellow like me, how intent could not possibly create 'eddys' in the fabric of space and time, that, as yet, unformed 'reality' flows into.

I ask this because I am sure neither of you have yet convinced me that it is impossible for me to decide to win the lottery, and create the conditions under which I do, by means other than buying a ticket and wining by pure chance. An Aussie coalition once did it using science and while expensive to do, made money at it.

Now Ill agree that isnt 'predicting the future' as in predicting it, and then passively letting the future unfold, as predicted. But I am not sure that the future is in any way a passive phenomena; and IMO predicting it, would by its very nature be active, and therefore contribute, in some way, to the future predicted.

If you could show me that I am not, nor can I be a creator of the future, then I could buy into the "cant predict the future" argument.

Until then, I think Ill go and have a ruben at my foavorite lunch place, in about an hour.

Ill let you know how accurate I was in that prediction later. :)

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Sorry Skip, but I find your brand of sarcasm to be funny instead of a putdown (G)... It is a trait I must learn I think.... Now I am not sure about quantum mechanics, nor do I need to understand it to post on this board, but unless I am much mistaken, the string theory is perhaps the statement that time is nothing more than energy, and if this is correct, energy can be rerouted or changed. Under those circumstances, prediction is not only possible but likely to be teachable!!!!!! I didn't bother to go deeply into this, but might be persuaded to attempts an experiment just for fun. I certainly have little time for those who jump in with "it can't be done", when all they have to offer is "I can't do it". This is a gross display of ignorance and contempt for others. If it can't be done, at least offer a good reason showing you have tried and failed many times. Thing is, if you have tried and failed, you are likely to keep your mouth shut and wait to see if anyone else tries and fails, or even tries and succeeds....

[Nicholas]

Firstly, I was a little confused reading your question, so I can understand how you must have felt reading our posts. Sorry.



At no point did either of us suggest that you cannot have an effect on the future. Of course you can. You can shape your own destiny to some extent. But to a large extent it will be influenced by other’s actions. It might be difficult for you to finish building your house, if tomorrow you are suddenly struck blind, deaf, dumb, and you loose both your arms and legs.



Intent however is not enough. It needs to be followed by achievable, and influential action. You can intend to win the lottery all you like, but unless you physically cheat, or have some influence over the balls, this will not happen.



Intent is the first step, but it’s no use intending for things that are completely beyond your constructive influence.

You can’t build a house out of love, and good intentions, but those are the forces that may drive you to take action, and so therefore shape the future.



Your point about predicting the future having an influence on that future is exactly the point I was trying to make, like the case of you trying to prevent your friend getting hit by a car, but in doing so, actually make it happen. – But this is only the Newtonian model, which has been dismissed by almost all physicists. It is the only option of physics for someone who believes in predicting the future. I do not buy into it, and so I believe predicting the future in the first place is impossible. The future is dynamic, and you do have an effect.



I hope this is sufficiently non-physics for you, if there’s any points that need clarity, just ask.

[Nicholas]

Terry. Time is not energy. It is a dimension, just as up, down, forward, back, left and right are. The difference is that everything travels through time in one direction. Energy can be rerouted and changed, but not in a direction opposed to time. There are concepts in physics that suggest something can be ‘jumped’ through time, avoiding travelling against it, but if this were possible, why do we not see evidence of this? More to the point, what makes you think that the human brain is an adequate conduit for this time travel of information to occur. There is no bending of space-time in the brain, there are no sudden appearances of inexplicable particles leading to brain activity. Nothing of the sort happens in our brains. There is nothing special about our brains, they do not go against our fundamental understanding of the universe, they conform to it. Neither do they have a any kind off effect on time or reality, only our perceptions of it (which I’m sure as someone interested in hypnosis you can understand).

[Don]

Nick, you are positing that there only can be random or non-random events. I would respectfully say that this is a rather 20th-century opinion (and early 20th-century at that). Already, computer models have moved into a world known as "fuzzy logic" which does not look at the universe as an either-or proposition.

But let's assume, for a moment, that we are stuck in such an either-or universe. Newtonian physics simply describes what is observed. The same is true of Quantum physics. In short, both are simply maps of the territory. There is no reason why there cannot be many more maps. And as I'm sure you know, we should never mistake the maps for the real territory.

It sounds to me like you're trying to equate the map and the territory. Either we are in a Newtonian universe OR a Quantum universe. I would suggest that neither is true. Rather, we live in a universe. Period. Newtonian physics can describe it. Quantum physics can describe it. That means both descriptors are accurate simultaneously.

As an analogy, light is both a wave and a particle, depending upon how we view it.

Perhaps light is actually something greater than the limitations of wave or particle. Likewise, perhaps the unverse is greater than an either-or definition.

[skip]

Nicolas,

Thanks for the non physics response, it was some more clear.

Aside from a general amusement, that you think if I lost my arms, legs, was struck deaf and dumb, etc, it invarably means that I wouldnt be able to finish my house, I am relieved to understand that you realize your position is just a belief.

"I believe predicting the future in the first place is impossible."

My ruben was delicious, but I will confess I almost changed my order, spur of the moment, to the calzone. I stayed the course only because of my prediction. It seems, in retrospect, that I not only predited the future, but by so doing, had the effect of guaranteeing that my prediction manifested. :)

I understand that both you and Cassandra have thouroughly studied, and understand why you believe what you do.

I just happen to believe differently.

And I recognize that I only have anectdotal evidence, spotty and inconsistant to boot. I also recognize that you are attempting to prove a negative, a formadable task at best.

I agree that we are both talking about a dynamic system, with a lot of variables, and rules, some of which may be inviolate, and others perhaps completely erroneous.

I do however BELIEVE that human volition, and imagination, and intent (if you will) adds an element to the system, that pure physics simply has not attempted, nor can it, account for.

It seems to me, that unless we CAN have an effect, then it IS entirely predictable, complex, but predictable. And if we do have an influence, then we CAN influence in favor of our desires.

Or is that just a logic trap?

skip

[Brian Carr]

We live in a universe. Period. It is quickly becoming accepted that we likely reside in multiple--or infinite--universes, each of which exist simultaneously. That we only perceive a single universe is simply a limitation of our species.

~Brian

[Nicholas]

Hey Don. You make some very good points. I said earlier that we either live in a universe where random events either can happen or cannot. This is not to say that if we live in a universe where random events can happen, that non-random events cannot. Of course they can.

Newtonian physics unfortunately is not applicable today, as nothing obeys its laws (it's just a very good aproximation, like a map with contour lines of 10 metres instead of 1).

I totaly agree with your equivalence of the map, and territory, as you can tell from that previous statment. However the best map is a full representation of the territory, and in fact is just a replica, and while at the moment it is just an inaccurate map, one day it will completely describe the territory. The map is the laws we create, and the territory is how the laws are suppose to be interpreted.

[Cassandra 8]

Newtonian physics unfortunately is not applicable today, as nothing obeys its laws.Don't tell NASA! :D

[Cassandra 8]

Nick, you are positing that there only can be random or non-random events. I would respectfully say that this is a rather 20th-century opinion (and early 20th-century at that). Already, computer models have moved into a world known as "fuzzy logic" which does not look at the universe as an either-or proposition.

But let's assume, for a moment, that we are stuck in such an either-or universe. Newtonian physics simply describes what is observed. The same is true of Quantum physics. In short, both are simply maps of the territory. There is no reason why there cannot be many more maps. And as I'm sure you know, we should never mistake the maps for the real territory.

It sounds to me like you're trying to equate the map and the territory. Either we are in a Newtonian universe OR a Quantum universe. I would suggest that neither is true. Rather, we live in a universe. Period. Newtonian physics can describe it. Quantum physics can describe it. That means both descriptors are accurate simultaneously.

As an analogy, light is both a wave and a particle, depending upon how we view it.

Perhaps light is actually something greater than the limitations of wave or particle. Likewise, perhaps the unverse is greater than an either-or definition.Don, I can see how you've arrived at that. In fact, it's a case of them describing different things. Classical mechanics describes how "real" objects behave (chairs, planets, etc.), whereas quantum mechanics models the weird physics of the probabalistic sub-atomic world. They're very accurate at describing their own parts of reality, but not each others'. You could use classical mechanics to model a pool ball during a break, and quantum mechanics to model how light shines off the surface, but it's hopeless the other way round.

(In point of fact, you chaps, classical mechanics isn't really newtonian mechanics, it's relativistic. :D)

[Don]

Brian, I use the term "universe" to encompass everything, including what you might call multiple universes. Prof. John Wheeler once suggested the concept of "Superspace," the universe within which all other universes exist.

[Brian Carr]

Much better! ;) Thanks for the clarification.

[Don]

Nicholas, everyone from NASA (as Cassandra points out) to the various militaries of the world use Newtonian physics. It works just fine.

BTW, during WWII, a group of people were employed to use Newtonian physics to determine how to aim the massive cannons of ships and on land. The U.S. government paid a huge sum of money to develop a device that would do the same thing. The title of the people employed in this position was "computer," and as a result, the machine was also called a "computer."

If not for Newtonian physics, the computer you're working on right now might have been called a "difference engine."

:)

[Merlin]

Events are not random.
We just don't always have the resources to 'predict' the non-random event.

[Merlin]

>The difference is that everything travels through time in one direction.
>Energy can be rerouted and changed, but not in a direction opposed to time.


That you are currently aware of.

[teadaze]

Merlin,

>Events are not random.
>We just don't always have the resources to 'predict' the non-random event.

If we look at our brains as a pseudo-random system working within another pseudo-random system (i.e. our environment) then does this not show that we have no free will?
Although the idea is difficult to bear, I cannot see any other way that we actually have choice. Randomness was the only thing I had left! :-(
The idea that every choice we make is the outcome of chaotic events is pretty unbearable....blah...i'm in a bad mood now...

[Nicholas]

Like I said Newtonian, is a poor approximation. We are somewhat talking at crossed perposes here, since I did not specify my definition of poor.
The laws of general relitivity have replaced them, and whille newtonian works quite well for low speeds, it does not work so well for 'objects' with speed approaching that of light. General relativity works for both low and high speed particles. Unfortunately neither approximation works for sub-atomic particles, and in fact even atoms can exhibit behaviour that does not conform to this. (In the case of a Nasa relativity is the best because it predicts the orbits of planets, comets, moons. and asteroids, where newtonian does quite poorly)

[Cassandra 8]

Merlin,

>Events are not random.
>We just don't always have the resources to 'predict' the non-random event.

If we look at our brains as a pseudo-random system working within another pseudo-random system (i.e. our environment) then does this not show that we have no free will?
Although the idea is difficult to bear, I cannot see any other way that we actually have choice. Randomness was the only thing I had left! :-(
The idea that every choice we make is the outcome of chaotic events is pretty unbearable....blah...i'm in a bad mood now...Calm yourself.

Pseudo-random and random are interesting topics. Hopefully, by reading on you'll see a bit of how the universe works in the process.

Your computer can generate pseudo-randomness. It takes a seed value (usually the date and time in fractions of a second) and processes it with an algorithm to produce "random" output. If you put the same seed value in, you get the same randomness out again. Most pseudo-random algorithms then use the output as the next seed. After a few iterations, can you or anyone else tell what the original seed value was? No, for a very good reason. The algorithms used are non-linear. That is, you can't work backwards to the original seed value then wind forwards to the next value and "predict" it. Modern encryption algorithms are non-linear for that reason. You can try to predict the next output using statistical analysis (the seive of erasthenes rings a bell), but you can never simply crank time backwards because information about previous states has been destroyed in the process of generating the current one. You need a complete view of the starting point to work forwards and know the future of a pseudo-random sequence.

So, are random events really just pseudo-random? Here's why you can't predict a random event. You'd think that if you have a complete description of a system (I'm guessing lottery balls for some reason) then you can simply work forwards in time and predict their outcome. to do so, you need to know the complex physical interactions that are going on. To know these, we need to start at the start so that we can take into account ALL PREVIOUS INFLUENCES on the balls from the time the tombolla started turning to see what complex soup is influencing them now. The problem is that these previous states no longer exist for us to inspect. We can start to work backwads, but it soon becomes apparent that fro this ball to spin in this way it could have been caused by several events, and those have several possible causes too, and so on. It's quite clear that if we could know everything about a system, we could predict future outcomes. But we can't know everything about a system because of this lost information. It's a shame, but there it is.

But hey! It is possible, very accurately in some cases, to predict future events statistically using probability, right? Well, yes and no. The problem with lottery balls is that they don't "know" that, say, 7 hasn't come up in over two years any more than a coin knows it has come up heads five times in a row. That's randomness. Quite apart from what they're doing now, they don't know what they did previously. Their final outcome has nothing to do with previous runs. It is non-deterministic, i.e it has no previous state upon which it depends.

You can, however, increase your chances of guessing the truth of a proposition using Beyesian probability. It's used all over the place these days and the maths of relative probability aren't that complex. Why, with a spreadsheet and some good guesses, you'll get increasingly good at predicting things the more complex a model you have. You'll also learn that you simply can't accurately and repeatedly predict a non-deterministic (i.e. random) outcome.

But a combination of logical fallacies and a smooth operator can convince those with a suitable predisposition that they have paranormal powers - such as beng able to predict future events. Several UK psychic schools "teach" subjects a fairly robust self-working mechanism (usually cold reading), but wrap it uo in so much mystic mumbo jumbo that they think of it as their developing ability. Most never know it's just a trick. they want to believe, after all. I went "under cover" last summer to one such residential school and had such a laugh pretending to be psychic for a weekend! I was the best pupil they'd ever had! Suspiciously good, in fact. :rolleyes:

[Cassandra 8]

(In the case of a Nasa relativity is the best because it predicts the orbits of planets, comets, moons. and asteroids, where newtonian does quite poorly)How are you getting that, dude?

[Don]

..., and whille newtonian works quite well for low speeds, it does not work so well for 'objects' with speed approaching that of light.... (In the case of a Nasa relativity is the best because it predicts the orbits of planets, comets, moons. and asteroids, where newtonian does quite poorly)


Neither the orbits of planets, nor the paths of comets, moons or asteroids, are anywhere near the speed of light. By your own definition, then, it should work "quite well" for them. Yet, you say that NASA doesn't use Newtonian physics.

Not only are you self-contradictory, but you're also simply wrong.

BTW, every army since the time of Newton has used Newtonian physics to determine the paths of projectiles. If it didn't work, no army could have ever won any war. Gunners and bombadiers don't concern themselves with Heisenberg.

[Brian Carr]

If we look at our brains as a pseudo-random system working within another pseudo-random system (i.e. our environment) then does this not show that we have no free will? Although the idea is difficult to bear, I cannot see any other way that we actually have choice. Randomness was the only thing I had left! :-( All living organisms--as least as we define life--operate according to their biological programing. We can only function as our programing allows.

[Craig Anthony CHARBONNEAU]

just read it,congradulations,you beat me to the same answer!

[Nicholas]

Look, newtonian physic becomes more accurate at low speeds, but it is still not foolproof, so when determining the position of a planet in a few of years, that innaccuracy accumulates. General relitivity does not have the same problem. There are also types of orbit which were deemed impossible by newtonian mechanics which, suprise suprise, works fine in relativity. I think this is a fair reason to say that newtonian mechanics is a 'poor approximation'.

The reason it is used for military purposes is because the distances travelled, time spent, speed acheived are so miniscule, that the inaccuracy also becomes very small. This is not the case for space, as the size of the earths orbit (as an example) is about 1000 times bigger than the the circumference of the earth, which is a little further that balistic missiles have to travel, and a little less time.
So if you're trying to use newtonian physics, DONT. Relativity always works on the large scale of billions of molecules tied together to form an object.

[Nicholas]

By the way, I'm not wrong you just don't know anything about the theory of relativity. - Aptly shown by the fact that you threw in something about the heisenburg at the end (it has nothing to do with general relativity).
At low speeds general relativity still produced different results to newtonian theory. - They just get smaller (over the same period of time) as the speed gets smaller.

[parsa]

Welcome to the new Physics forum:) .

This is as far as my knowledge goes.

General relativity says (one thing it says) that space-time is curved around an object with mass. I don't know the equation but more massive objects result in a more curved space-time around that object. The equation also involves the distance to that object.
I think when trying to predict the period of one of the planets in the solar system the was a discrepancy of 1 second in a 100 years which was explained with general relativity.
I guess a space shuttle expert should answer but I would think that we could get along with most space flights without heavily considering general relativity, I could be wrong.

If you want to see how much speed will have an impact of you getting close to using special relativity you need to calculate:
(1- v_squared/c_squared)_0.5 (* _x means power)
So if the a typical speed of a space shuttle is on the order of 10_3 (meters per second) the above equation will give about ONE. Meaning you are no where near the special relativity limit.

[Brian Carr]

Welcome to the new Physics forum. How fortuitous that this past week marks the 100th anniversary of Einstein's submission of his paper on special relativity.

[Don]

Respectfully, no.

The exactness of planetary positions, determined through Newtonian mechanics, is completely accurate within our measurement abilities. Planets are at such distances that even a tiny discrepancy results in inaccuracies, compounded by gravitational changes, etc. These figures, until recently, were used to kept track of the location of the U.S. nuclear submarines.

Relativity, contrary to your claims, does not "always work" to perfect accuracy because of measurement error (due to measuring devices) and variables that are not known. That's why the government has switched away from locations based on the positions of stars and planets and toward GPS systems. And GPS systems used Newtonian physics to get the satellites launched.

"Billions of molecules tied together," even complex molecules, would give one or two people standing on your head. That's hardly the vast distances you're talking about. And if you're talking about individual molecules, you're more likely to be able to predict activity using quantum mechanics, although much of the quantum universe is still not understood.

If you really think that the only relativity works on a subatomic level, then you do not understand either the theories of quantum physics nor the realities of the quantum world which are still unpredictable (see IBM's problems in developing a "quantum wire").

[teadaze]

>Calm yourself.

>Pseudo-random and random are interesting topics. Hopefully, by reading on you'll see >a bit of how the universe works in the process

Yes, now I know the meaning of the entire universe....I still feel my question was unanswered though (bit of a bugger that)

[Nicholas]

When I said billions of molecules tied together I was reffering to tables, guitars, tennis balls planets, stars, black holes etc, not single molecules which obey the laws of quantum mechanics. The larges object which does seem to obey the laws of quantum mechanics, is a single molecule known as Buckminster Faulery (excuse the spelling) also known as buck balls, which is about 60 atoms of carbon.
I did not refer to a single molecule and neither did I say that the number was restricted in any way. I was refering to large objects which do not obey quatum nature, but relativity nature. You must either not be reading what I say properly, or you are not taking it in or understanding it.
While local satallites may use the equation F = dp/dt, interplanetary satellites must use more complex relativity equations.
The orbit of mercury around the sun actually goes against newtonian predictions, which was observed. Then using relativity, a more accurate model was predicted (so our measurements are not so inaccurate that we can use newtonian anyway). Also anything that would change the orbit of mercury against the relativity predictions, would have to be pretty huge, and therefor easily observable.

[Merlin]

Hi teadaze,

I'd say the mind is free, within the constraints of the body's abilities.
For instance, if we freely choose to not do X yesterday, well, that (it seems) won't work.
If we choose to bodily dematerialise here and rematerialise on Mars, well, that doesn't work too well either.
Maybe with tomorrow's technology, but today it doesn't work real well.

But I'd say for all practical purposes we have free will.

[Merlin]

Teadaze,

Although not random, the choices are still near infinite!

[Don]

Nicholas, I'm sure that you can continue to come up with ideas to support your dogmatism, but that's up to you. Not long ago there was a massive underwater Earthquake which resulted in a tsunami and that changed the spin of the Earth. It would not have been seen from some 57 million miles away.

Nobody is stopping you from believing in your dogma. By all means, do. But you can't force others to believe in your dogma. As Galileo supposedly said, "Still, it moves." And as people have long since discovered, Newtonian physics works.

[Nicholas]

I agree that the earthquake would not be noticed from that distance, but the spin probably would. The earthquake would be indirectly discovered from that change in spin once all the other possibilties for the shift are discounted.

While I agree that if your error in measurement is greater than the difference between newtonian and relative predictions, then newtonian will be adequate. There are too many cases in astronomy though, and even some cases in scientific research on earth, to which the measurement error is less than the difference between newtonian and relativity. For this relativity must be used.
What's the point in having relativity if newtonian mechanics works fine?

[teadaze]

I am going to use an analogy to simplify things a little bit:

If we were to build a very complex machine that had the ability to learn from its environment (I wonder how far off this technology is?), we might want to test two of these machines for 'free will' by giving them some kind of a choice to make. Chances are, from their different experiences each would make a different choice (depending of course, on the nature of the choice given).
So this then seeems to us and maybe even the machines, that they had the capability to make choices and therefore have free will....BUT....the choice was based on a weighing up of the experiences of the machine and the limitations of its design. We know therefore that the choice was an illusion, for us and the machine, and that the 'choice' was inevitable and not really a choice.
I cant see how we, as very complex machines, actually make choices. We are an 'outcome generator' calculating variables that we cant measure. You might say that these variables are so complex that it is impossible to measure them but that still doesn't prove that we have free will.
I believe we have the illusion of free will, and that it is necessary for us to live with this illusion in order to make choices. I might even be so bold as to say that free will is impossible - I cant see how it is possible.

[teadaze]

>I believe we have the illusion of free will, and that it is necessary for us to live with this illusion in order to make choices.

spot the deliberate mistake!

[Cassandra 8]

What's the point in having relativity if newtonian mechanics works fine?Can I wade in here and just ask:

1. Why everyone keeps calling classical mechanics "newtonian".

2. "Relativity" is too vague a term to be of any use. Do you boys mean special or general relativity?

[Cassandra 8]

I might even be so bold as to say that free will is impossible - I cant see how it is possible.That is bold. The answer lies in neuronal noise. We're semi-deterministic.

[Cassandra 8]

>Calm yourself.

>Pseudo-random and random are interesting topics. Hopefully, by reading on you'll see >a bit of how the universe works in the process

Yes, now I know the meaning of the entire universe....I still feel my question was unanswered though (bit of a bugger that)Later perhaps. I have a terrible hangover (from celebrating a friend's divorce).

[Nicholas]

Well I don't know if we do, but if it is so, then I don't know.

I was using both special relativity and general relativity. I used the term 'general relativity' earlier as one of the concepts that goes against newtonian theory.
I moved on to say 'relativity' because both special and general relativity have aspects which only concour with newtonian mechanics when the measurement error is greater than the difference between them. Special relativity is about the co-ordinate systems used to determine speed and position, which in special accounts for inertial frames of reference. General explains the problems with mercury's orbit, and also gravitational space-time distortions, which also go against some newtonian mechanics.

I'm extremely tired and bored of this thread now, so I think I'm going to leave it now, and I hope that everyone else will. I can see there will be some people who will not be convinced by what I say, which is fair enough as they have their own beleifes. My original intention was just to bring up some temperal paradox problems concerning being able to predict the future (which may have proved helpful in knowing what to look for if predictions are possible), but it this thread seems to have completely lost topic. It is probably a very good example of NLP and communication. So I hope that it will be at least some use to someone studying arguments and different uses of the english language to convey information.
I am just sorry for lollie, for so terribly ruining their thread.

[Don]

I agree that the earthquake would not be noticed from that distance, but the spin probably would. The earthquake would be indirectly discovered from that change in spin once all the other possibilties for the shift are discounted.

While I agree that if your error in measurement is greater than the difference between newtonian and relative predictions, then newtonian will be adequate. There are too many cases in astronomy though, and even some cases in scientific research on earth, to which the measurement error is less than the difference between newtonian and relativity. For this relativity must be used.
What's the point in having relativity if newtonian mechanics works fine?


You're right, the change in spin would be noted after the fact. So it is probable that people would wonder why their calculations were wrong and look to see what changed. They would discover that the spin had changed and would put forth all sorts of ideas. They might not even guess that it was a massive earthquake. Thus, contrary to your claim that anything that could make a prediction false would be seen, only the effects would be seen.

Your last question, however, is a good one. So let me put it to you this way. Do you know how a car works? I mean, do you know how valves and pistons work in relation to each other? Do you know how anti-lock brakes work? Do you know what the computer chip that controls so many functions on modern cars does? My guess is that you might not know all of the intricacies of the automobile, but you do know that if you put it in gear, judiciously apply the accelerator and brake pedals, and steer in the right directions, you will get to your goal.

Newtonian physics is like that. Point in a direction, give it some gas, and you get there. The physics of general and specific relativity describe why. They describe the intricacies of the car. Another way to describe this would be to say that Newtonian physics describes the objects and their interrelationships from the outside, while relativity describes them from the inside.

When the apple supposedly fell on Newton's head, he "discovered" gravity. Rather, he figured out that one body exerts (or seems to exert) a force of attraction on another body. Relativity gives a more accurate picture (according to modern science) of how that actually works. In both cases, however, the apple hit him on the head.

It may be that in the future we will discover a completely new theory to explain the way things work, a theory that will make obsolete the physics of both Newton and Einstein. But that doesn't mean that the systems of those two men won't work accurately.

Nobody uses slide rules any more, but that doesn't stop them from working.

[teadaze]

>That is bold. The answer lies in neuronal noise. We're semi-deterministic.

Could you expand on that idea a bit more Cassandra?

[Brian Carr]

I believe we have the illusion of free will, and that it is necessary for us to live with this illusion in order to make choices. Or perhaps to think we can make choices? :)

I might even be so bold as to say that free will is impossible - I cant see how it is possible. Refer to your robot example. The robot was making a choice, wasn't it? It's choice may have have been limited by its design, but it was still a choice.

A similar situation exists with any other "living" organism--it responds to stimuli. The ways in it responds are dictated by what it is. It cannot be more than what it is, or it would not be. We function within the context of what we are; we can't be what we are not. But within that context, we can choose.

You use the idea of "complex" in your post. What makes something complex, and what makes it simple? Can't everything be complex, if you care to examine it as such? Conversely, why can't our universes be astonishingly simple? How do we humans know we aren't very simple creatures, after all? Humans love patting themselves on their backs for their "superiority." It's hysterical!

[Merlin]

Teadaze,

There are a couple of differences between us and machines.
-we can imagine possibilities beyond our own experiences. (Well, some of us can ;-)
-Though it's not popular to accept among many, we have the abilities beyond our physical body (PSI)

[Cassandra 8]

>That is bold. The answer lies in neuronal noise. We're semi-deterministic.

Could you expand on that idea a bit more Cassandra?Yes, my hangover's better now. I can focus without squinting and hold a cup of tea without shaking. Never again!

Okay. Each neuron in your head produces a certain amount of random noise. In fact, your head is a very noisy place. This is a good thing, however.

You see, neurons fire if the sum of their activations (and they can have many thousands of connections each) reaches a certain threshold. If they just did this, we'd all see the same thing, respond in the same way, and be no fun to mess with. We'd be deterministic, like a computer. But the amount of noise in the system means that sometimes, very subtly, thresholds are met and cells fire when the sum of the activations doesn't legitimately reach the threshold. This helps us in pattern recognition, which is what we're all about.

Supposing you have a signal you'd like to tune into, such as a voice across a crowded room. The aggregate threshold in your auditory system for this to be a signal may not be met, no matter how hard you concentrate, without the addition of a little noise pushing it above that threshold. Similarly, staring at white noise on a TV starts to bring out patterns. Ditto clouds. It's fuzzy processing and it can fool us in interesting ways as well as help us to get a signal out of noise. Don't believe me? Turn out the light, let your eyes get accustomed to the dark then try to look at objects in the room. You get a better view by using your peripheral, very noisy, vision rather than looking directly. clever, isn't it.

Anyway, the point is that all our billions of neurons are fizzing slightly with noise all the time. These random factors are in us all, so there must be a good evolutionary reason to expend the energy. The answer lies in pattern recognition, but also means that two people can take in the same information and arrive at subtly (or even wildly) different conclusions, have flashesof inspiration and even form quite irrational beliefs that are absolutely real to them, such as PSI, and we must respect that.

Thre are a couple of interesting side issues to this, too.

Firstly, machines are easily capable of imagining and even dreaming. If you build a neural network incorporating noise that responds to visual signals to produce associated output and you cover its camera, it will start "dreaming". It's output starts producing images in a conjunction that it's never seen before, driven by the random noise tripping the activation levels of its neuons. A very nice researcher at Reading University showed me that once. A very weird thing, but something he got a PhD for.

And there are various ways to make machines think beyond their own experiences. These have been around or about thirty years. In fact, the new generation of AI-based computer games is interesting in this respect. Rather than following scripts, the baddies now can anticipate what you might do next, think about what's likely and take action to pre-empt you. Then there's chess. Kasparov was beaten fair and square by a machine he accused of being given human help becasue he simply couldn't believe that a machine could play the way it did. It did. His problem was that it clashed with his belief, not reality.

[teadaze]

>Refer to your robot example. The robot was making a choice, wasn't it? It's choice may have have been limited by its design, but it was still a choice.

No, the point of my entire argument was that it was not a choice - it was an outcome. If I write a long equation of many, many variables, then the answer (outcome) will always be the same. This can likened to the 'choice' made by this machine. Go back and repeat the experiment without changing its learned experience or its design and it will 'choose' the same thing each time. This suggests, therefore, that it doesn't choose at all.

>You use the idea of "complex" in your post. What makes something complex, and what makes it simple?How do we humans know we aren't very simple creatures, after all? Humans love patting themselves on their backs for their "superiority." It's hysterical!

Yes I am very aware of this. It has nothing to do with my argument though. If I were to say: "humans are very complex", on its own the statement is meaningless - as you well know. I was using the word 'complex' when comparing the human mind/body to the mechanics of a machine...simple as that.

What I am saying, is that when you or I are confronted with a 'choice', we will pick the same option each time, providing the circumstances are EXACTLY the same as they were at the time of the so-called 'choice'. Therefore the choice is not a choice, its an inevitability. If the circumstances change, we might go with a different option, but the crucial difference is that the situation changed, and so therefore did our learned experience.

[teadaze]

>There are a couple of differences between us and machines.
>-we can imagine possibilities beyond our own experiences. (Well, some of us can ;-)
>-Though it's not popular to accept among many, we have the abilities beyond our >physical body (PSI)

These two factors might distance us from machines, and further cloud the issue, but still does not prove that we ever make a free choice. The idea of having a choice, the more I think about it, seems absurd and impossible. We 'decide' as a result of experience, no? If so, the option we go with is an inevitability.

What do you mean when you say that it is possible to 'imagine possibilities beyond our own experiences'? Are you refering to Past Life Regression?

I just finished Deeper and Deeper by the way, thanks for the recommendation, it was very good!

[teadaze]

>Yes, my hangover's better now

Not mine!

>Never again!

Lies =)

> It's fuzzy processing and it can fool us in interesting ways as well as help us to get a signal out of noise. Don't believe me?

Oh i believe you! The best time to do this is just before sleeping, if you watch the patterns which dance on the inside of your eyelids then you will see the most amazing patterns. Its called hypnagogoc imagery.

Does this neuronal noise give an explanation for free will though?

Thanks for your ideas, im not convinced though!

teadaze

[Cassandra 8]

Does this neuronal noise give an explanation for free will though?Absolutely. Even if we all started with exactly the same mesh of neurons, all having the same exact weightings and activation levels, this neural noise ensures that after a few minutes each of us would be in subtly unique states. As we saw above, random events have no states upion which they rely, so we can't just wind time back and find out why somoene thought something. We can only ask for their (rather subjective) recall.

Babies act on instinct, randomnes of all kinds is readily apparent in that they all learn slightly differently and develop from a single cell into unique individuals. A few years down the line, they're asserting free will as toddlers, finger painting scenes they have only imagined, and holding quite fantastic beliefs about themselves and the world around them.

Our choices aren't just made based on past experiences. Partly because our individual experiences and their interpretations are unique to us and also because of neural noise, we are truly semi-deterministic - a bit random. Identical twins show certain traits, but don't act in unison.

This has interesting effects on a cognitive level, too. When faced with an absolutely balanced 50/50 choice, without noisy thinking how would you ever "feel" that one way is better than another? Noise is a good and creative thing.

Randomness is possibly the most important aspect of the universe. It underpins everything. Without it, we'd still be in a stable quantum lump and there'd be no Big Bang, no evolutionary principle and no free will. In fact, we've evolved to deal with it admirably. Perhaps, if there is a God, it is randomness, or at least expressed in this universe as randomness.

I think I need a spliff after that little lot...

[Cassandra 8]

Hey, teadaze, I've got a great one for you. If I remember, I'll post a reference later (and if I can find the bugger!).

Place your hand on the table, palm down. Now raise a random finger. If you were in a scanner or hooked up to an EEG polygraph, the crazy thing is that we'd see the motor neurons controlling that action fire before the parts of the cortex associated with conscious decision making. It's called the ideomotor effect. People hooked up to EEG machines playing with ouija boards prove there's no dead person moving the glass. Their motor cortex is ultimately moving the glass, but not telling the conscious brain that they've done it. The forces on the glass are subtle, complex and subject to our incomplete, noisy control of our fingers, but they have been measured using a pressure sensitive surface.

The reason is simple. Inthe finger example, the decision has already been made at a subconscious level about which finger to move, and the action starts playing out. But when there's a good reason not to let consciousness acknowledge what's happened and rationalise it, like believing in the board's ability to contact dead people, it isn't made - ist's a deletion, as talked about in NLP. Ergo, the conscious mind is left wondering what "something else" is moving the glass. Well, it is a ouija board... :eek:

[Brian Carr]

No, the point of my entire argument was that it was not a choice - it was an outcome. If I write a long equation of many, many variables, then the answer (outcome) will always be the same. This can likened to the 'choice' made by this machine. Go back and repeat the experiment without changing its learned experience or its design and it will 'choose' the same thing each time. This suggests, therefore, that it doesn't choose at all. By this logic, then, aren't allchoices outcomes?

I was using the word 'complex' when comparing the human mind/body to the mechanics of a machine...simple as that.
Ok. I was just trying to point out a possible (subconscious) bias in your argument. ;)

What I am saying, is that when you or I are confronted with a 'choice', we will pick the same option each time, providing the circumstances are EXACTLY the same as they were at the time of the so-called 'choice'. Therefore the choice is not a choice, its an inevitability. If the circumstances change, we might go with a different option, but the crucial difference is that the situation changed, and so therefore did our learned experience. Is it possible to keep circumstances EXACTLY the same on two different occasions--especially where living things are concerned? What about the concept of neuronal noise Cassandra 8 introduced?

Do you like science fiction? I think you'd find Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series intriguing. At least part of the series is quite relevant to our discussion here. Read the first three books, Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. I'd like to know what you think!

[Brian Carr]

Though it's not popular to accept among many, we have the abilities beyond our physical body (PSI) Merlin,

Do you believe it is an ability we're evolving toward, or evolving away from? Or do you think the majority of humans simply suppress it? Or, might it possibly be the result of an evolutionary mutation that only expresses itself among some members of the population?

[teadaze]

>By this logic, then, aren't all choices outcomes?

yup :-)

>Is it possible to keep circumstances EXACTLY the same on two different occasions--especially where living things are concerned?

It couldn't be two different occasions. It would have to be the same situation at exactly the same time unless we could stop the mind from taking in any different information.

lol, this is getting rather confusing. I have thought this for quite a long time now and I remember that when I was quite young I would sometimes do the most random thing I could think of just to prove to myself there was no pre-determination (although I didnt have the words to explain it then). That doesn't prove a thing though because that very action was not a choice - there was something in me that wanted to prove that I wasnt on a set path.

[Terry (existing)]

Ah well, perhaps I'm the crazy one, perhaps I was dreaming when I experienced precognition beyond doubt which spanned knowledge by five years ahead of the happening. When a volunteer of mine experienced OOBT and gave me information which would have been impossible for him to know without traveling beyond his body. When both my sons proved to be telepathic with each other, and had fun celebrating that fact. Who knows, but what I do know, is that I did the work and the study, those who scoff have not, and likely will not, since they don't beleive it possible, and don't have the mind of a researcher. I did my work for fun and interest, and proved to myself without any wish to prove anything to others. Oh yes, I also worked with a group of six young adults who were strangers to me before that time, and found that we could achieve over seventy percent success with telepathy tests, including an extra member who sent from a distance with success....Oh well, crazy or not, it has been an interesting life, hope yours has been just as interesting (G)......

[Cassandra 8]

Terry, would it be possible for you to post your results on the web somewhere so we can have a look at what you discovered and how you did it?

[teadaze]

hmmmm....
im not sure if I can accept that neuronal noise is random, maybe I am not understanding you correctly.
If you look at the fuzz on a TV screen it looks entirely random. Apparently, it is a display of all sorts of radiation including some radiation from the big bang. So this is not randomness, it is again pseudo-random behaviour.

Even if you were to say to me "I can prove to you with no room for doubt, that truly random events exist, and that these events effect choices and therefore overide the influence of learnt experience," I would not be satisfied that i had free choices.

Would you be satisfied to know that your choices were based on something entirely random? In fact it proves more that we are, if anything, a slave to random events - something which makes me further doubt the existence of choice.

Your knowledge of Physics and Quantum theory is obviously superior to mine, but I dont understand how people (in general) can talk in lofty ways about the nature of the universe, when the laws of the universe change and contradict themselves constantly!

Go back a few decades ago and tell a physicist that sub-atomic particles can 'communicate' with each other from great distances, and they would provide you with an explanation of why this would be impossible...

[Nicholas]

I'm really upset now because I promised not to return to this thread, however this is a far too interesting subject to ignore. Sorry everyone I'm back.

On the contrary to what you say, I am very interested in finding experimental data for each case, and have on occasion experimented with friends on telepathy (unfortunately the results were less than probability suggested, a sort of anti-telepathy). By no means these were good experiments, and I do not hold any weight to them.
As a physicist I am constantly aware that suddenly a new theory will come along and totaly blow the previous one out of the water, so I am always open to new experimental data (which is conducted under controlled conditions with little posibility of contamination). Until then I stick firmly to our current understanding (but that does not mean we shouldn't test it, in fact quite the opposite). So I too would be very interested in hearing how you conducted these experiments and what the outcomes were.

On the subject of your two sons. I and my brother could be described to have a psychic connection. We often say the same thing, we do similar things, we often quote from 'The simpsons' at exactly the same time, and when we are talking we always understand each other, even when others do not. We know what each other are thinking.
This is however not psychic. We have had the same upbringing, we do the same things together, we watch the same tv shows, go to the same pub, like the same things. We have an incredible rapport. But that is all. Our minds work in, not the same but, a compatible way. We reach the same outcomes, and when we are seperated we do similar things because we are such similar people, despite the fact that he is 6 years older than I, he works chose to leave school to work, wheras I chose to go into further education.
If your two sons have any psychic experiences like this, it will most likely be due to rapport. However if they have had an experience where one intuitively knew the other was in trouble, without any observed contact, then I cannot explain it and am very interested to hear what happened.

On the subject of you having premanitions. I once had a dream, and a year later the exact thing happened, down to the finest detail. However memories are subject to change. With hinesight on the whole instance I was able to determine that it was merely a similar dream, and it was something I wanted to happen, over time it eventually did due to my desire (and conscious action), at which point my memory of the dream changed to fit the reality that had taken place.
Also I am forever having instance, where a split second after an event, I think to myself, I know I've already seen this. I remember it happening before. This however is just to do with my memory. The information is quickly put into long term memory, and this confuses me sometimes and I access this long term memory when thinking about it, and wonder why the informations is there (all subconsciously), and then consciously decide it is because it has happened before. This is just one of the possible reasons. The one I am most confident with. (Perhaps I am just psychic, but refuse to beleive it.)
Did you write down your premanition when it happened, and then 5 years later when said event happened you remembered and found where you had written it down and it concoured with the event?

Lastly on your 6 subjects. If they were able to establish rapport with each other, that will immediately throw the experiment into doubt. They may just be extremely good communicators of information. So when they are separated and tested, they are thinking along the same lines.
Also if you gave them a breifing befor hand, which was either the same, or even with them all together, then you may have conveyed ideas to them subconsciously.

Please tell us all about your tests. We will all be very interested to hear about them.

[Nicholas]

Sorry one of those is de ja vous (however you spell it). It's all comming back to me now. ooops

[Brian Carr]

When I was little, I decided I wanted a Micey Mouse clock and a computer. So, several weeks later, my grandparents came up from Florida to visit my family. What did they walk in with? Why, a Mickey Mouse clock and a toy computer, of course!

Now, this may not seem all that odd, except when one considers the fact that no told them what I wanted. My mother swears she never uttered a syllable about it, and my grandmother vehemently denies any forehand knowledge. And it's not like they subconsciously processed conversations they overheard, since they lived some 2,000 miles from here.

Oh, well. It's the last wish I've ever had where I've only needed to wish for it to be fulfilled. :(:o

[Terry (existing)]

Terry, would it be possible for you to post your results on the web somewhere so we can have a look at what you discovered and how you did it? The details were posted some months ago, and for those who wish to repeat my experiments, purchase the book Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, and read. Then do the ones that interest you. I did OOB, and telepathy. I took every precaution against error or false results, and am satisfied that PSI exists. Others can think as the wish.
The other item I mentioned was from a dream relayed to me five years before the tragedy it predicted occured in the UK, and was dreamt at a time when the person involved was residing in the States, with no intention of returning. The dream was a perfect predicition in all details including the other persons involved and the location of the tragedy. Anyone knowing about the later, and suggesting it is nothing more than coincidence is a bloody idiot, so I am convinced, most especially because it was my mother who had the dream, and she told many friends about it immediately after she dreamed it because it was so real to her. The telepathy experiment was done exactly as in the book with some extra things added to ensure that the results couldn't be anything but a reflection of truth. Nobody could possibly have fixed results, and it even included a ringer that I didn't know would intervene....However, having seen the reception that Lolly got, my attitude is, if you want to do the work, good for you, if not don't bother me, I have little time for those who doubt yet fail to attempt to prove anything. Besides, if others get those same results I am vindicated, and if not, why should I care so long as I am convinced of what happened and why?

[Brian Carr]

And it's not like they subconsciously processed conversations they overheard, since they lived some 2,000 miles from here. That should read 1,000 miles.

[Merlin]

Nicholas,

Welcome back.

After reading your post I find it interresting to notice your preconceived ideas and how they mold your thoughts.
You sight several situations which may involve some sort of psi experience, and then you dismiss them, rationalising them away.

What if they were psi? What if they're not just a similar upbringing?
I'm not saying they are or are not, but you seem to dismiss the experiences without really knowing. You assume no psi and so rationalise the experiences away.

>...and have on occasion experimented with friends on telepathy (unfortunately the results were less than probability suggested, a sort of anti-telepathy).

Anti- is just as good a proof.

BTW, if you want to gain positive success, what you need to do is get rid of *imagination*. Your conscious will be your own worst enemy.

[Merlin]

Teadaze,

>What I am saying, is that when you or I are confronted with a 'choice', we will pick the same option each time, providing the circumstances are EXACTLY the same as they were at the time of the so-called 'choice'.

Given your description, will would choose the same each time. Freewill or no.

Freewill doesn't mean we make random choices.

> 'imagine possibilities beyond our own experiences'?

There is a first time for everything.
Mankind dreamed of walking on the moon, even though noone had ever experienced it. Same thing with breaking the sound barrier. And many other things.
It didn't require experience first.

>I just finished Deeper and Deeper...

Kewl!

[Merlin]

Hi Brian,

I wouldn't say we're evolving towards or away from.
I would say it's suppressed. It's less useful than the other sensory perceptions in most cases. It's too distracting.

I see it more like a skill. Something we can practice and get better at.

[teadaze]

>Freewill doesn't mean we make random choices

Yeah, thats the discussion I was having with Casandra yesterday.

Is it fair to say that when a person comes to you with a certain behaviour pattern, you can find some of the reasons why they may be bahaving in such a way?

This leads me to believe that there might be a reason behind any choice a person makes. This seems completely logical to me - and if this is the case, we never make a choice because it is only based on our learnt experiences. So we never actually choose, we just process information and it seems as if we are choosing (much like a machine).

[Cassandra 8]

After reading your post I find it interresting to notice your preconceived ideas and how they mold your thoughts.
You sight several situations which may involve some sort of psi experience, and then you dismiss them, rationalising them away.Merlin, why are his direct experiences preconceived while your tertiary reading of them is not? Why, in fact, must two close brothers have anything than common experience from which to draw? In all honesty, and much as I admire your dogged determination to believe, but are you not trying to rationalise the mundane into the fantastic here?

[Cassandra 8]

The details were posted some months ago, and for those who wish to repeat my experiments, purchase the book Psychic Discoveries Behind the Iron Curtain, and read. Then do the ones that interest you. You know, Terry. If it's in print over here, I think I will.

[Cassandra 8]

>I wouldn't say we're evolving towards or away from.

I have a number of questions. Chief among them is, what are you basing that on?

[Terry (existing)]

You know, Terry. If it's in print over here, I think I will. I would apreciate someone else repeating some of them. I chose those that required no special equipment such as aura cameras etc, but there were so many posibilities that missing out on some wasn't a big deal. I recommend the two I did first, followed by more difficult ones. Teaching another language was an interesting one, but when the Canadian Government employed someone to try this so that all civil servants would be able to speak both official languages, they bombed. I am still curious to find out why, but just don't have the time or inclination any more. I should warn you however, once you start serious research, you may find yourself stuck with it, it's addictive.

[Cassandra 8]

I would apreciate someone else repeating some of them. I chose those that required no special equipment such as aura cameras etc, but there were so many posibilities that missing out on some wasn't a big deal. I recommend the two I did first, followed by more difficult ones. Teaching another language was an interesting one, but when the Canadian Government employed someone to try this so that all civil servants would be able to speak both official languages, they bombed. I am still curious to find out why, but just don't have the time or inclination any more. I should warn you however, once you start serious research, you may find yourself stuck with it, it's addictive.It's only a few quid, so I have ordered it from Amazon this afternoon. Delivery time, 1-2 working days.

[Merlin]

Cassandra,

Either possibility is an assumption unless you are prepared to prove one or the other.
I simply point out that neither has been proven here. One option *seems* more comfortable so the other option is dismissed.

[Merlin]

>Is it fair to say that when a person comes to you with a certain behaviour pattern, you can find some of the reasons why they may be bahaving in such a way?

Sure, just ask them.


Teadaze, random isn't much of a choice.

>This leads me to believe that there might be a reason behind any choice a person makes.

It may be nice to have a choice which allows you to pour gasoline on yourself and ignite it.
But isn't it nice to thoughtfully consider the outcome and have the choice of not doing it?
Would it really be better to have such events randomly happen, without control over the situation, or choice?

> So we never actually choose, we just process information and it seems as if we are choosing (much like a machine).

So, the concept of microchips was just following others?
No one decided to explore outside the box?

[Cassandra 8]

Cassandra,

Either possibility is an assumption unless you are prepared to prove one or the other.
I simply point out that neither has been proven here. One option *seems* more comfortable so the other option is dismissed.So why fight either corner? Isn't it better to find out first?

[Merlin]

>So why fight either corner?

I didn't.
I only brought up the other possibility.

>Isn't it better to find out first?

How, if one possibility is dismissed without consideration?

[Cassandra 8]

>So why fight either corner?

I didn't.
I only brought up the other possibility.

>Isn't it better to find out first?

How, if one possibility is dismissed without consideration?No, that particular linguistic manipulation doesn't work any more.

Anyone watching Live 8?

[Terry (existing)]

Glad to know that someone isn't afraid of doing the work (G). If I can be of help once you get the book and decide which ones you want to try, let me know. I will reply via email, since I have no desire to offer information to those who might misuse it, and cause harm either to themselves or others. We do have quite a few here who haven't a clue.....

[Cassandra 8]

Glad to know that someone isn't afraid of doing the work (G). I'm going to do this completely "blank". That is, I'll pick an experiment, examine the text and method to see if there's anything "self working" about it (I have some small knowledge of magic, you see), then design a protocol to test it and start collecting data. Everything I get I'll publish on Geocities or somewhere similar, and invite you lot to see if there are any holes in what I've done, with the invitation tocriticise, improve and repeat the protocol to get your own results. The more data the better. It could be interesting, but I have no idea what will happen, but the hard bit is designing and operating a protocol in a strictly objective way. That's the point of publishing, I suppose.

[Terry (existing)]

I would advise that you give thought to what you publish and what you leave out. Sadly there will always be idiots who jump in without proper skills, and botch up someone elses life with their stupidity. When doing my work, I took precautions of course, and even then go one incident that terrified a volunteer to the point of histeria. That is why I keep certain information close to my chest. I have no desire to do harm when caution will prevent it....

[Cassandra 8]

Well, at the moment I have no idea what the book contains. I understand your plea for caution, but let's not pre-empt the issue. As I'm fond of saying, let's find out.

[Brian Carr]

When doing my work, I took precautions of course, and even then go one incident that terrified a volunteer to the point of histeria. Why? Was it so deviant from the person's normal experiences that they didn't what to think or how to handle the situation?

[Terry (existing)]

Yes, and I have little doubt that most would react in the same manner.

[Brian Carr]

Dear me, now I'm really curious! I wish there was some way I could participate in such an experience.

[Terry (existing)]

Dear me, now I'm really curious! I wish there was some way I could participate in such an experience. and were were you when I needed more volunteers? (G). I suppose you could get the book and follow along as Casandra does the experiments. Mine were exciting, so I see no reason why she won't have just as much fun, and learn just as much as I did.

[mindpowersuccess]

I am new to this forum, but read your post and do believe in ESP. Also money being a big issue in my life growing up and now. I think it holds me back from success. Thow I am very positive and have created alot of positive change in my life and others threw hypnosis, like you this is a tough one. I am a clinical hypnotherapist, so I don't think I could personally help you in your task.
I thought you might be interested in a course I've been taking the Silva Method. Jose Silva, first experienced ESP, with his daughter helping her with her homework. She would say the question he was about to ask her before he even said it.He did mind training exercises with his childern to help them in school. Jose won the lottery threw a vision of number that came to him. If you would like to read the article about this here is the link.
http://www.silvaultramindsystem.com/cgi-bin/arp3/arp3-t.pl?l=10&c=126445

Perhaps with your psychic ability you could use this as a guide, and tune into the event of how the numbers came to him that happened in his life.
I would be interested to know how it works out for you. Also if you would like to try a experiment of two minds connecting from distant locations, I am trying to increase my psychic abilities. I would find this interesting to try.
Have a wonderful day!
mindpowersuccess

[ezvano]

money is real that is why you canot pick the numbers, but you can predict things in people heads.

[Mentalius]

Hello Lollie (imagine the tune, yourself :-)

Just a tip: break the the task in two - "will" the right person to come to you, then go for the original goal.

And i´ll be waiting, holding my breath, this IS an exiting mad social experiment.... :)

[Brian Carr]

Teadaze, do you like science fiction? I think you'd find Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series intriguing. At least part of the series is quite relevant to our discussion here. Read the first three books, Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. I'd like to know what you think! I've not heard from you. Perhaps you prefer visual stimulation? See the strange and wonderful sci-fi/fantasy Dark City (1998). It's an anachronism of creativity and wonder that deals with the concept of free will as one of its themes. Don't take the movie lightly; it isn't a mindless blast-a-thon but an adult film that will demand your involvement, force you to think, and require you to examine the details.

Reaction to Dark City seems to fall along a curious love-hate dichotomy. But I'd venture that those who don't like it either lack imagination or simply can't be bothered to look beyond the superficial.

You can read Roger Ebert's review of Dark City here (http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/19980227/REVIEWS/802270304/1023).