NLP does not work!

[Unregistered]

I give up on this **** it does not work. And I also think people practicing it are deluding themselves if they think its working because that’s all it is something you think is working when in reality it has no practical application. If NLP works for people the way it should work then that would suggest that people who master NLP are literally more evolved than ordinary people and this would set them apart and their achievements would be astounding and they would all be recognised and making changes to the world. I don’t see this happening!
The people making changes have real skills not ones they have fantasised about.
If NLP did really work everyone would be using it by now but it doesn’t do ****.

For example

Are all you NLPers millionaires? Maybe you say you don’t want to be a millionaire but hay you could give some to charity. Being a millionaire would be just be a matter of choice to you would it not? Then u make it into a reality so go do it.

Why don’t you use your accelerated learning and modelling to creating something useful for the world like a new energy source that doesn’t require fossil fuels. scientist are trying their best at the moment but surely a NLPer could accomplish this goal by modelling geniuses and accelerating their learning, and if it feels like a long daunting task do some bull**** exercise that will make you feel motivated to accomplish it.

Why don’t you go fix some real world problems like famine in the 3rd world you could easily persuade high powered people to assist you and teach the people of the country how to better themselves NLP skills are endless if in fact they actually worked by im afraid its all just bull****.

The closest NLP gets to working is you think bad thoughts you feel bad you think good thoughts you feel good what you imagine you feel…. This is common sense nothing more and the effects are temporary you cant actually change anybody with NLP.

[Merlin]

I think you're holding back too much.

How about telling us what you *really* think.

[Terry (existing)]

You are absolutely correct, we are deluding ourselves.
Now tell me, why did you bother to communcate with a bunch of losers?
Is it perhaps, that within that ... brain, there lurks a suspicion that someone else has found a way to make it work, and you haven't?
Now I am sorry I can't confirm that for you, I have never practised NLP, just hypnosis, but I do read minds, and I believe I have read your correctly.
I will leave you with a bunch of statements, only one of which is untrue, but you have to figure out which one, and I am not telling......
I am NOT rich!
I did NOT win a lottery in an unfair manner, knowing the numbers in advance of the draw......
I did NOT make $300,000.00 in one year of practise as a therapist, Gross of course! After taxes etc, it was one third of that....Terry

[beaches6]

Boy you have had a bad day. Don't you feel better letting all that out.

What wouldn't have happen if you didn't let it all out.

[Zanther]

Do you even KNOW what NLP and its real world applications are?

BTW, I recently was able to eat peanuts for the first time after the allergy cure. A good thing too, since I didn't notice what I was eating contained peanuts until halfway through!

[Unregistered]

I rest my case....

[John Warner]

you rest your case?

now now, the last thing a hypnotist needs is more vague language.

[Zanther]

I rest my case....Refer back to first line of my post. The question

[solaris152000]

In what way does it not work NLP is about thinking stratergies. We cannot persuad people ie: politicians to help the starving becuase they are to selfish. NLP cannot make anyone do anything execpt maybe make them want to do something. Read instant rapport that will help.

[Unregistered]

Yes i do understand the principles of NLP and so far im the only one talking english here....

and no im not going to read a book on rapport in the words of bandler

"and this rapport thing..? excuse me, ok i made this stuff up alright, and theres whole books on rapport, it said in one line of my book "if u need trust"
now thats a question i dont think you do with clients most of the time its not they need to trust you they need to trust themselves."

[John Warner]

I'm not sure what i think of that quote, but yes, i've heard it as well.


haha i like listening to bandler speak. he's a nut. it's quite entertaining.

really tho, all the jargon aside, nlp is just the study of what works.

if you do something that works consistantly, and i learn that method from you and apply it to my life, i've just used nlp.

everyone is always asking "what is nlp exactly?" i remember bandler saying something along the lines of nlp being a bull**** term that he and Grinder just made up so that they could do what ever they wanted.

[solaris152000]

In what way does it not work... have you even tryied it??

[magicgirl]

Interesting thread to read on my first time posting here....so how can you be so "angry" about something that you don't believe in?

And I follow up the question from solaris52000 - have you ever used any NLP techniques?

[Sam]

I give up on this **** it does not work. And I also think people practicing it are deluding themselves if they think its working because that’s all it is something you think is working when in reality it has no practical application. If NLP works for people the way it should work then that would suggest that people who master NLP are literally more evolved than ordinary people and this would set them apart and their achievements would be astounding and they would all be recognised and making changes to the world. I don’t see this happening!
The people making changes have real skills not ones they have fantasised about.
If NLP did really work everyone would be using it by now but it doesn’t do ****.

For example

Are all you NLPers millionaires? Maybe you say you don’t want to be a millionaire but hay you could give some to charity. Being a millionaire would be just be a matter of choice to you would it not? Then u make it into a reality so go do it.

Why don’t you use your accelerated learning and modelling to creating something useful for the world like a new energy source that doesn’t require fossil fuels. scientist are trying their best at the moment but surely a NLPer could accomplish this goal by modelling geniuses and accelerating their learning, and if it feels like a long daunting task do some bull**** exercise that will make you feel motivated to accomplish it.

Why don’t you go fix some real world problems like famine in the 3rd world you could easily persuade high powered people to assist you and teach the people of the country how to better themselves NLP skills are endless if in fact they actually worked by im afraid its all just bull****.

The closest NLP gets to working is you think bad thoughts you feel bad you think good thoughts you feel good what you imagine you feel…. This is common sense nothing more and the effects are temporary you cant actually change anybody with NLP.

Hi Mr Unregistered Poster,

I'm unregistered, too. :-)

Listen, I'm a stickler for not just quoting a whole long post because I don't like wasting bandwidth, but your post is precious in it's entirety and deserves to be left as it is. At least for the purpose of my reply.

This isn't really a question of whether or not there is something called X that can result in Y. It's really a question of what you want. And I believe you already know what you want but that you just don't know who you can trust to guide you. One thing is for certain, though. You won't find what you're looking for by berating a group of people who are not responsible for any of the claims you make about them. At best, you'll find someone understanding enough to give you a sincere answer, but more often than not you can expect to trigger some unfavorable reactions; and, more often than not, those will be used by you to make you think you were right about "those people" all along. Do you know what it takes to become aware of this cycle? Or what it takes to break it?

Kindness. Understanding. Forgiveness.

I understand you're dissappointment, dissatisfaction and disbelief with the idea that there is something called NLP that is said to be so "wonderful" and so "transforming" when anyone of sound and unsound mind can claim they are using it to good effect. So to counter that, complaining to an anonymous group of people is not the best course of actions. Finding out what it takes to develop the ability to discern the difference is.

See if you can find some non-mainstream examples of people who seem to be using it to good effect instead of condemning a swath of apprentices for not being adept magicians. Try to remember that NLP is a set of experimental tools. And not all craftsman are alike. And that, initially, you just want to begin an investigation -- a sincere one. So far, it's been a matter of "I believe/I don't believe" or "I agree/I disagree", but from now on, let it be "What can I find out about this if I make the effort to just go a little bit past my initial reactions?"

For the record, I do not practice NLP, but I do specialize in understanding myself and the world I live in. :-)

Thanks for your honest expression,

Sam

[Sam]

Interesting thread to read on my first time posting here....so how can you be so "angry" about something that you don't believe in?

Start with a few examples from your own life when something like that happened and you will reduce the likelihood of insulting him with your good intentions. And if it never happened to you, then you won't understand him no matter what he says.

Sam

[magicgirl]

Start with a few examples from your own life when something like that happened and you will reduce the likelihood of insulting him with your good intentions. And if it never happened to you, then you won't understand him no matter what he says.

Sam
Hi Sam

I am unclear as to the intention behind your reply to me - please could you explain more? The intention of my post was not to insult anybody but to understand where the person was coming from.

Maybe my mistake was to mind read that the person was angry - which I apologise for - I got this mind read from the sets of ***** every now and then.

For me if I totally didn't believe something worked then I would just let it go - but from my experience of myself and others people tend to react a certain way as they are dismissing something because deep down they know it works - they simply haven't found a way to make it work for them yet

Apolgies for any insults that may have been taken from my post - my intetntion was simply to understand anothers point of view:confused:

[TLC]

Magic Girl.
#
All over this website are posts by people who raise simple questions of doubt... All over this website we have the repeated assertion that "NLP works" based on the evidence of "experience". .. But if any of them can cite ANY scientific studies in support of ANY of their practices, surely it would be logical for them to concentrate on such proof ...

... who was it who said that a client is cured when they pretend to be cured long enough that they forget that they are only pretending! ...

[Merlin]

...NLP doesn't work.
That's why I use it. I want to fail.
Doesn't everyone?

And no, what the mind expects to happen, never does happen.
And you'll *never* find any scientific evidence of placebos working.
Neither can a bumble bee fly. It's aerodynamically impossible. There's been plenty of scientific research to prove it.
But the bumble bee is too stupid to realise that fact.

I too am stupid. Far too stupid to realise NLP doesn't work.
I know it's been scientifically proven NLP doesn't work.
But like the bumble bee, I'm to stupid to realise science says I can't and so I merrily go about sucessfully using this NLP thing which everyone knows doesn't work.
...

[Jack]

LOL, Merlin!

Jack

[magicgirl]

Hi Merlin

I think that you have misunderstood my original post, because when I read back your reply to my post to somebody else you are telling me how you think NLP works - I think? Well I think it works too so I am confused by your reply

[Unregistered]

I am just thinking of tryng NLP. I find all this v confusing. But I am really expecting it to work, and it will

[Don]

I am just thinking of tryng NLP. I find all this v confusing. But I am really expecting it to work, and it will

From my understanding--and I do not profess to be an expert!--it is possible to make use of bits and pieces of NLP through reading books and visiting websites, etc. However to really "get it" and to be able to make use of it regularly in your life, it is better to experience an in-depth training.

[neta1o]

Wow, I originally registered to read posts with no intention of participating or posting responses but this individual is obviously frustrated with nlp



Unregistered = If NLP works for people the way it should work then that would suggest that people who master NLP are literally more evolved than ordinary people and this would set them apart and their achievements would be astounding and they would all be recognised and making changes to the world. I don’t see this happening!



RESPONSE: Just because someone can do something you cannot doesn't mean that the individual is more evolved. It means that you haven't found a way to be as successful in a certain skill as that individual. People are seeing results on a daily basis with NLP and whether it works or not, PEOPLE SEE RESULTS. Secondly, making changes in the world doesn't need to be done on a grand scale. Giving someone the ability to recognize a fear they've been dealing with all their life and being able to face it thereafter is astounding!!!



Unregistered = The people making changes have real skills not ones they have fantasised about.



RESPONSE: I agree, the people do have real skills. But before the NLPer assisted them, they didn't have the ability to achieve the results and changes. If they did, they wouldn't have the problem, or they would have been able to fix the problem themselves, without guidance.



Unregistered = If NLP did really work everyone would be using it by now but it doesn’t do ****.



RESPONSE: Philosophically, my belief and opinion is that 'NLP' style communication will become a large part of everyone’s conversation in the future. Everyone uses it everyday and doesn't know it. Listen to commercials and people close to you. You won't believe how powerful some people’s communication is. The more patterns I learn, the more I hear people using variations involuntarily. Just because something works doesn’t mean that everyone is going to use it. Dieting works, but the US is still a nation suffering from obesity.



Unregistered = Are all you NLPers millionaires? Maybe you say you don’t want to be a millionaire but hay you could give some to charity. Being a millionaire would be just be a matter of choice to you would it not? Then u make it into a reality so go do it.



RESPONSE: This is probably the most haphazard statement in the entire argument. If you truly understood NLP and it's purposes, you'd know that you cannot convince someone to do something that they do not want to do. NLP explains processes, it is not used to convince.





Unregistered - Why don’t you use your accelerated learning and modelling to creating something useful for the world like a new energy source that doesn’t require fossil fuels. scientist are trying their best at the moment but surely a NLPer could accomplish this goal by modelling geniuses and accelerating their learning, and if it feels like a long daunting task do some bull**** exercise that will make you feel motivated to accomplish it.



RESPONSE: Please learn more about NLP before making such empty statements. You can’t model accelerated learning. You can model a motivation to learn. This may ultimately lead to accelerated learning. But it’s not going to provide the cure for cancer directly. Or maybe it will.



...I’ll respond to the other parts if necessary, but hopefully by now things are becoming more clear. If you were to truly learn to apply NLP, I think you’ll find the results astonishing. You need to re-frame(change) you view about your lack of success. You see it as frustration and failure. What if you could view it as a learning experience. Anytime you encounter something new or difficult it is an opportunity to learn, adapt, and hopefully evolve. This attitude will move you closer to what you truly want to find. Maybe you'll be the first to find the initiative to contact world leaders and apply your skills in allowing them to find themselves curing famine, etc...

[Frog420]

*yawns*

*turns off alarm clock*

*rolls back into bed*

*sleeps*

*wakes up with the sudden realisation that i am infact water and carbon and not much else*

*falls back to sleep in the safe, warm knowlege that sound makes even simple things change, just so slightly, just enough*

Chris

[Don]

Hi, Neta1o.

There is a difference between a skeptic and a debunker. A true skeptic has an "I don't know--prove it" attitude. A debunker has an "anything I don't agree with can't exist and I'll do anything to disprove it" attitude. Unfortunately, debunkers have been usurping the term "skeptic" to describe their debunking because "skeptic" sounds rational and scientific and "debunker" sounds dogmatic and prejudiced.

Debunkers will take a highly superficial understanding of a topic and refute it from that basis. For example, they'll point out that astrology blurbs in newspapers can't possibly fit everyone. After all, how could twelve passages of two or three sentences each define the experiences of billions of people on any given day?

The answer, of course, is they don't. Astrologers will tell you that those little newspaper blurbs have almost no relationship to real, in-depth astrology.

Now, I don't want to get this into a discussion of astrology--people can determine its validity or non-validity for themselves. But because many people equate astrology with those newspaper columns, the debunking seems to be valid. In fact, it's what's called a "straw man argument." This is when you make up something, claim it is what somebody is doing, and then debunk what was made up instead of what was actually being done. This technique has worked for centuries.

Recently, a TV show by two self-professed skeptics did a debunking of hypnotism and of one hypnotist in particular. I contacted that hypnotist who told me that they falsely represented what they were going to do and falsely stated that she made certain claims. She told me she never made such claims--ever--but they said she did and denounced her for it.

[Unregistered]

"original poster"

[neurotic1]

Hi unregistered.

Interesting thread this. I am not an NLP practitioner in terms of qualification but I do understand that it will not work for everyone.

I would suggest that NLP is simply the study of excellence and it encompasses much psychological tested forms of influence during communication. It takes time and effort sometimes to achieve what you wish for people but if , from the outset they know about NLP and don't believe in it, they will resist it and it won't work for them.

In your posting you suggest it never works... however, I can say from experience that, when I have counselled the same person using a little NLP and without, they responded much better with NLP and felt they had gained more, although they didn't know I was using NLP.

Anecdotal sure, perhaps we need some randomised controlled studies...

[haitham]

It happens naturally with me, I am born with NLP! My personal spyware if you would like to call it that :) , well if all NLPr's will be millionaires there will be no poverty worldwide, It helps alot, success to achieve more goals, 'I obtained my degree by corrispondance' for exemple, I nerver study hard for anu of my exams,just read it once or twice, well if everybody around have studied hard, all I have to do is to copy their thoughts :) , I almost failed in maths though:D

voila, this is how is see NLP

[Calvin Iwema]

Why should I create a new energy source or fix thirld world famine? Are the clients I have helped to make changes enough? What if other people are more evolved than you? Why do you feel so bad about this "human inequity?" How is your pissy-pants tirade working fo you?

Thanks for the humor.

[habituallyhypnoidal]

Just a quick note to compliment most of the people responding to this thread. Generally discussion groups like this tend to degrade into a lot of name calling. When faced with someone who was obviously frustrated most of you responded very kindly. You all defended your beliefs in something most of us do think highly of (or we wouldn't be here) but you did it in thoughtful and kind ways. Bravo gang. I guess it's a facet of our common interest - self improvement and helping others.

And to our frustrated friend: No. Most of us aren't millionaires. None of us is perfect. But we're all trying and succeeding either a little or a lot - and whether it's quickly or slowly... that forward momentum is what makes what we do worthwhile. I'm sorry to hear NLP hasn't worked for you in the past and I hope as you imagine yourself lost in your thoughts and drifting towards a belief in a way for you to more fully embrace your own method of finding your own happiness and path in life in a way similar to a time that you remember... perhaps when you were very young... when you suddenly and deeply found something you thought you had lost. Which reminds me of feeling the feeling of touching stairs with my small hands and climbing them carefully with my parents holding my back and as I climbed and... you know... you feel sensations... sounds... sights and what is it like when a metaphor for learning at your own pace in your own time in your own path up stairs towards a more deeply held understanding of why negativity can turn backwards and the thoughts and beliefs that once seemed so real fall away... farther and darker and more distant and you find yourself now wondering about something and the more you try in vain not to have an inspired thought... the more you try not to... dream a dream that clarifies and consolidates and brings you a new awareness tonight the more you will follow the old emotions down the rabbit hole and learn... really learn... what was there -- will you not?
:)

[Neurotic1]

Lol, lovely to read your posting habitually. Very inspired use of words. The last part was lovely to read for me i think i lost and found myself gently in it.. I feel good now lol :)

[Unregistered]

Just a quick note to compliment most of the people responding to this thread. Generally discussion groups like this tend to degrade into a lot of name calling. When faced with someone who was obviously frustrated most of you responded very kindly. You all defended your beliefs in something most of us do think highly of (or we wouldn't be here) but you did it in thoughtful and kind ways. Bravo gang. I guess it's a facet of our common interest - self improvement and helping others.

And to our frustrated friend: No. Most of us aren't millionaires. None of us is perfect. But we're all trying and succeeding either a little or a lot - and whether it's quickly or slowly... that forward momentum is what makes what we do worthwhile. I'm sorry to hear NLP hasn't worked for you in the past and I hope as you imagine yourself lost in your thoughts and drifting towards a belief in a way for you to more fully embrace your own method of finding your own happiness and path in life in a way similar to a time that you remember... perhaps when you were very young... when you suddenly and deeply found something you thought you had lost. Which reminds me of feeling the feeling of touching stairs with my small hands and climbing them carefully with my parents holding my back and as I climbed and... you know... you feel sensations... sounds... sights and what is it like when a metaphor for learning at your own pace in your own time in your own path up stairs towards a more deeply held understanding of why negativity can turn backwards and the thoughts and beliefs that once seemed so real fall away... farther and darker and more distant and you find yourself now wondering about something and the more you try in vain not to have an inspired thought... the more you try not to... dream a dream that clarifies and consolidates and brings you a new awareness tonight the more you will follow the old emotions down the rabbit hole and learn... really learn... what was there -- will you not?
:)

I read on a posting here 'about as usefull as a torch in sunlight!!!' why dont you just tell the guy O.K. Bandler is right its all bull but you were once interested enough to find out more now take that enthusiasm with you and at least you have gained something from 'the spirit of NLP' and sorry it hasnt worked yet the more you..... the more......

[Unregistered]

to the original poster would'nt it be nice if you could change the world and we could stay here and chat.

[Unregistered]

If NLP is simply a field of study (and that's how I was taught to hold it ...) then saying "NLP doesn't work" is about as illogical as saying "U.S. History doesn't work."

Michael

[MIRROR WORKED]

i used mirroring to get out of a sticky financial contract. i got back a rather large sum of money and obsolved myself of further commitments to this person and his service. about 4 hours later i recieved a call from this person who was now very angry indeed. he acussed me of manipulating him into a corner and forcing him to agree to something that he did not want to. he withdrew his consesion but by then it was too late.

my conculsions were-
he was weak minded/willed
i was a better negotiator
mirroring worked

some or all of the above

[Unregistered]

Hey can some one please explain to me why nlp doesn't work, the person who started this topic just went off saying it doesn't work. Now saying it just doesn't work without any examples and real thorough proof doesn't put up much of an arguement.

Some one want to explain this to me?

[Jack]

Hello,

Ultimately, there is no absolute proof of anything. Human knowledge changes by the second and what is true now wasn't true then and almost certainly won't be true in the future. So absolutes, unless you believe in God, are not worth the argument.

NLP is just one form of human communication and as such many people have benefitted from it. Whether it is 'true' or not is irrelevent; it only matter that it works in the time frame it inhabits. Now, for our poster it doesn't work, and I have no argument with that position because that is what he believes for whatever reasons he has decided are true for him.

For me, it does work, most of the time. My prime reason is that I use NLP and a client leaves me without the problem with which he came in. I do not give a monkey's stuff about whether what I am doing is 'true' or not, only that it works. If I could get the same results waving a ju-ju stick and burning the entrails of a ****erel then I would. (Must try that sometime).

We all have opinions, and that's all they are.

Jack

[Jack]

!!!I don't beleve that the word 'c o c k e r e l' has been asterisked!:)

Jack

[Jack]

How about ' He pulled the gun out, ****ed the hammer and fired'?

Or: ' A great Scottish soup is ****-a-leekie'?

Jack
(**** of The North):) :) :)

[Jason_Mind_new]

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Sparkling new gold coins pour from my finger tips any time I command them to. You must be doing something wrong.

Now English, *that* doesn't work! I try and try to talk to people but they just don't understand me!

[Shlomo_NLP]

You're right, I admire you to find the truth that NLP'ers take years to find. NLP does not work. But you do.

NLP is not a set of techniques, my friend, it's a general attitude. And it has a catch, just like our friends here said: flexibility. If something doesn't work, try it differently, try it with another thing, try something else. Flexibility is the "work" in NLP. And if you're missing that piece, no pattern or script or model will help you (most likely).

Am I rich? How about Anthony Robbins? Do you consider him to be rich? Without NLP he would be still selling vaccum cleaners. Not all NLP people are aiming to riches, and most people wouldn't even want or have desire to invest and risk and lose and do everything there need to be done to get there. Some do. Some don't.

Don't look for answers outside, it is all within you. Seek solutions - you'll find them. Blame NLP for being the underdog and you'll stay there.

[Adelina]

i have kinda read all the posts and it s interesting to see how people think in millions of different ways and sometimes it s a big barrier in our communications.you can do anything you believe in.i know i m not the first person who stated this and that you have heard this before maybe millions of times but i really mean it when i say this.if you believe that NLP is not gonna work, then it wont...if you think that you can succeed through being pessimistic and stuff then it s gonna work i guess...but i just dont see the point why some people are trying to influence other people..let them think as they wish..it s not our problem..and why would the guestmember want to write in something that doesnt even believe in or something that he doesnt even care appearantly???
but since he has been to this website and took some time to look around and post something, i m starting to believe that he actually wants to learn about NLP.hehehehe what do u think?

peace
Adelina

[Unregistered]

All this sounds a whole lot like secondary gain to me.

Of course 'it' doesn't work. You have to work it. It is not some magic pill that does all the work for you, then you will be at effect. The whole point is for you to be at cause. Sounds like you sure are at a cause.

[Shlomo_NLP]

I would say cars don't work either... I called my car so many times and it didn't respond... but look, one time I dared to use a key... :-)

by the way, what do you think about the flu vaccine? it doesn't work either... it makes your body respond to it, that's all, and that makes all the difference in the winter.

:-)

[void]

Hi my name is Dragan and i'm currently doing an essay on NLP only a short one but i'm finding it hard to get information on the benefits and/ or disadvantages of NLP on an actual NLP website (i.e. one created by several NLP practitioners it said that NLP fails in some regards) where is this info and if anyone knows please post it thank you

[Pdrive]

This is the the third thread that our friend Void here has posted his unbiased question in.

No further comment, so I dont digress the thread....

[solaris152000]

One thing terry:

I am NOT rich!
I did NOT win a lottery in an unfair manner, knowing the numbers in advance of the draw......
I did NOT make $300,000.00 in one year of practise as a therapist, Gross of course! After taxes etc, it was one third of that....Terry

Which of thoose is untrue?

[Shlomo_NLP]

I would make my bet - all of them none. If one was true, you'd be in the bank, not here... :-)

and yeah, you're right, we should stop global warming. Let's concentrate on that for a moment.. hmmm... warmer cooler...

[Not yet registered]

He's right (in context *heh heh*). NLP doesn't work because NLP isn't anything. NLProgramm-ing - a nominalisation. He's given it qualities and then argued against them. A logical fallacy but it's real for him. Logical doesn't equate to real, anyway, does it? His understanding of what NLP is that it doesn't work in his reality. That doesn't mean I have to accept his reality, or he mine.

What is NLP, mates? I have an internal representation of it that's completely different from anyone else's so who am I to say?

My certificate says it's ok for me to hallucinate that I'm a practitioner. I also hallucinate that the techniques I learned using a process, an attitude, a who-knows-what work. I believe/filter that we NLP ourselves and each other all the time, so I determine how I'll do it rather than just let it happen. :-)

Best regards...

[betlamed]

There is no spoon, honey.

And no spooning, either.

:-P
bl

[Nebulus]

" What the thinker thinks the prover proves.. (original poster)"

Prometheous Rising! Yes, very good! The funny thing is when the view for this statement is directed at the NLP practitioners, it is ironically redirected without prejudice back at the original poster. Hence, the belief that NLP doesn't work, based on this or that, is established provable criteria. Truely, what the thinker thinks, based on this or that, the prover proves. There is no criteria for established validity. Only that the prover proves their disposition based on whatever that poster comes to know is substantial in their own mind. The battle is truley in the mind, for the mind. Oh the world is so unkind. Get behind me Satan!!!

[betlamed]

Nebulus:

Of course, evil tongues might call it a closed belief system... It sure explains why most nlp practitioners practice nlp, and little beside it. :-P

bl

[Shlomo_NLP]

I've sent Richard an email and suggested to change the name NLP to Frozen Yogurt...

this way no one will keep asking what it is.

[Pdrive]

Good call Shlomo!:D

Im wondering why the original poster bothered to post his beliefs here. It seems obvious to me that the practictioners here arnt about to renounce their practice based on his views, so what exactly was he trying to accomplish?

Maybe he's just waiting for us to convince him.

[mrhal]

how do you know if nlp or mirroring etc is working ??
maybe its all in your mind,,,

[skip]

The simplest test is when you can lead, and they follow.

I am constantly reminded as well by people's comments, "I feel like I have known you forever.", "I cant believe I am telling you this, I have never told anyone else, and Ive only known you ..."

You cant see rapport, but you can observe its effects.

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[Brian Carr]

Neither can a bumble bee fly. It's aerodynamically impossible. There's been plenty of scientific research to prove it. But the bumble bee is too stupid to realise that fact. Hello, Merlin (and all)!

I realize this is on a far different tangent, but I hope you'll indulge my curiosity--this is just too interesting. You mean to say that bumble bees defy all current scientific convention? Why, exactly? What is it about their physiology (if that's the proper word) that should render them flightless? What theories have been proposed as to why they do indeed fly?

Many thanks,
Brian

[Don]

Hi, Brian.

This is an excellent question and fits in perfectly with posts I have been making in other threads.

Some time ago some scientists examined the size and shape of a bee's wings and to their surpise, determined that such a wing could not provide enough life to support the size and weight of the bee. Obviously, something was wrong since the bee does fly, but what was the problem?

What they discovered was that their observations had been incorrect. You see, the theory which stated that the wings of a bee were not big enough to provide the lift for the bee was based on the concept of a solid, fixed wing, such as you would find on an airplane. The theory is quite accurate for a fixed wing aircraft. On closer examination of the bee using high-speed photography, however, it became clear that the wing flexes. It bends. This flexing results in greater lift, allowing the bee to easily fly.

So what happened? They had a theory and an observation. However, the observation was incomplete and the theory was the wrong one. Once the observations were accurate and the proper theory used, both the bee and the scientists were quite satisfied that, indeed, the bee could fly.

[skip]

But I am still not satisfied, so it is still in dispute. :)

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[Jakey]

I would like to add my experience of NLP.

I had a whiff of NLP in my days of university, but never followed up the subject. Only at the beginning of this New Year a friend said he was attended an NLP experience weekend in London, breaking wood, walking on fire, etc. This sounded interested and paid my money.

To this point, my life wasn't the best, I've worked hard, made plenty of mistakes and sometimes wonder how I have gotten where I am. My childhood was difficult, had a heavy handed father for the first 6 years of my life (and for 6 years of my mother's), which I didn't realise how much this had really messed my life up. Think I denied this part of my life consciously, as well as my father. I would tend to start well in work, then purposefully sabotage my progress, sometimes lose the work, or sometimes quit. We are also talking about seriously low self esteem and non-belief.

Anyway, without going into too much detail, I think I have set up a picture of gradual self destruction. Even my relationships didn't last long, I couldn't get close to them (same for friends, easy to make friends, but once they became too fiendly - in my eyes - I would disown them.).

So, on the afternoon before the NLP course began, I had a phone call to say I was rejected for a new job. I was gutted, to say the least, I thought this job was in my back pocket and was waiting for the contract to sign. I felt like going home. Totally desolate and truely unhappy. I forced myself to stay for the first evening as there was the firewalk and wanted this experience, at least, then if still unhappy, could go home.

By the end of the evening after breaking wood, firewalking and doing some simple NLP techniques, I felt not so blue and decided to stay the rest of the weekend. I know I am waffling now, but I think it important, from my perspective, how powerful NLP really is, please bear with me...

Within the second and third day we did some really heavy personal reviews of what is stoppping us in our life, and for the first time in my life decided to acknowledge my father and work through some of these issues, change the perspective and live the life in our imagination on how we wanted it, plus a few other booster exercises (NLPers will know in more detail what technique was used), something I had never done before. At the end of this weekend, I was a new person, loved my new imaginary father and the life we lived, lived the life I wanted to. I have not erased the experience of what has really happened, I have put a stronger and more positive picture on top of it. The experience I want. Over time we distort the real image regardless of how bad our experiences were, I have now the 'distorted' image I really want.

After this weekend, I noticed a difference within me, I had some interviews for other posts that next week. I was unbelievable in these interviews, to say so myself, We had learnt a little of the Milton Model and language. I didn’t realise how powerful this could me. Let’s say this lead to second interviews.

Inbetween this time (we are talking two weeks from the weekend course to this next experience…), I had enrolled to do an NLP Practitioners course, thinking I would like to give something back and to tidy up some of the areas, or issues, that I didn’t have chance to clear up in the weekend course (one can only do so much). What I didn’t realise until doing my training was how much **** was still floating in this create cavern on my shoulders. Not only did I have a wonderful learning experience, I be-came more ‘balanced’ in life’s perspective, to use a simple word.

That was January 2005. It’s now in the Middle of November 2005. So what’s happened? I attended some more interviews, was offered a post in all but one. I turned down a fantastic job for an even more brilliant post in Germany. I separated from a partner that wasn’t going in any direction. Even though we weren’t together, there was something stopping from separating before this NLP experience. Although it was hard to cut the ties, I felt a great lift from my shoulders.

I left the UK and moved to Germany, what a lovely place. I had been there once for a period of time, and loved it. Was a little worried that the previous experience would stay as fantasy and not enjoy it. I used everything I learnt to build a positive experience out of every ‘good’ and ‘bad’ situation and how to ‘ make this a better experience’ the next time in all aspects of me being here.

In between, to keep me focussed, I have read the Anthony Robbins books and have done every exercise, bar one (to be done over the Xmas Holidays), to keep me focussed. I have helped a couple of people on the way through NLP and am making amazing progress at work. Miltons speech model is hard to use here as the Germans don’t have the same flexibility in the English language and am learning how to do this now in German.

I had no intention in meeting a new partner here, as I was enjoying my life and freedom on my own. I have met a wonderful, beautiful and interesting woman, who has many attributes I need fro me to want this relationship to work. Not only that, she wants to progress in this relationship, to grow, develop and to have new experiences in life. This is perfect. We got engaged after 10 weeks together and have just crossed over the 6 months milestone. Living together is great. Our arguments/discussions means we find new ways to ensure we never have the same issue again and look for ways in making our relationship better. What more could I ask for? There are one or two points I need to work on, but that’s with time (I have one issue to NLPers and Hypnotists, that will be in another email).

I used to look for fights, arguments, trouble, problems, etc. I can’t be bothered now, I do the opposite. I can still be awkward, stubborn, etc, but that’s more my personality (I think) and in getting the job done, yet I have found a side of me that I didn’t know existed. I have a great life and future ahead of me, but not enough time. I don’t recognise myself sometimes. My friends and family don’t and am glad that my new partner didn’t know the old me, I don’t think we would have survived.

Has NLP made me rich? Yes, but not financially. I’m earning more than ever before and charge people when I NLP them, but that’s not my richness. My richness is from life. Everyday is a wonderful day, even bad days are great! They are so intense. I look forward to each day and challenge with zest. Never have I had that before.

What does my partner think of NLP? She’s sceptical, however, she’s now more confidence, and a point I find funny, is that the fact that she doesn’t eat chocolate anymore, is not due to NLP, but because she doesn’t fancy it at the moment (not bad for a person that ate some every day!), her words!

So, for me, NLP is a powerful tool, I want to change and can recognise where I want to be different, then I find out how to change it. If it doesn’t work, I look at my commitment and my technique and reprogramme again (the word ‘try’ doesn’t exist in my vocabulary; you either do or you don’t, there are no grey areas).

Well, if you have read to this point, thank you, I hope this gives a point of view to the first email on this bulletin list. Although I haven’t covered all my story, I hope you see the positive impact NLP can have on a person, and what opportunities are out there in using this wonderful tool carefully.

How do I know it’s working? I’m not the same person I was. Or I am the person I was hiding from.

Is it all in the mind? Yes. I think some you would disagree; I would like to call NLP ‘conscious hypnosis’ where the self does the programming in the way the client wants to see it and experience it. This doesn’t mean to say that Hynposis isn’t doing the same, it is, but differently.

Is it belief? Definitely! Believe you can do something and you will! There are people in this world who are physically sound but can’t walk. You believe you can, and you do. Think about what’s required to walk… Push foot forward, lose balance and fall forwards, stop self from falling by putting forward foot on ground with enough tension to remain stable, repeat with other foot. Sounds easy.

Turn on the spot while looking up at a fixed point ten times, then walk again, not so easy. This time after turning around ten times while looking up and about to make your first step, turn an imaginary ball in your head in the opposite direction, you need to work out your speed. Suddenly walking becomes possible, although not perfectly. It’s all belief and finding how to make the belief work.

Let me stop there, I am in waffle mode. Could go on for hours now. Thanks for listening.

Jakey

[Don]

Hi, Jakey.

Thanks for sharing your story! I really enjoyed reading it.

[maverick]

I'd like to think your belief would push you to learn more about the subject until you realise it works.

Remember 'No failure only feedback' :D

[Brian Carr]

Think about what’s required to walk… Push foot forward, lose balance and fall forwards, stop self from falling by putting forward foot on ground with enough tension to remain stable, repeat with other foot. Sounds easy. It does, doesn't it? @$#%!&* blasted bipedalism--faustian riddle! :rolleyes::p:D

[Jakey]

Wow, cool! Have learnt a new word. Time to bipedalise for a cup of tea!

[maverick]

The simplest test is when you can lead, and they follow.

I am constantly reminded as well by people's comments, "I feel like I have known you forever.", "I cant believe I am telling you this, I have never told anyone else, and Ive only known you ..."

You cant see rapport, but you can observe its effects.

skip

I agree totally, this is something that happened regularly before I studied NLP, but now it happens much more frequently, NLP rapport building skills are brilliant.

[Poodle]

I really wonder if the person that originally posted this thread has any idea of how much NLP inundation there is on TV??? Madison Avenue uses it very, very well to get us to purchase what we don't need. Political speaches are soooo full of it that a lot of it doesn't even make good sense if one sits down to read it. Just listen to the next political speach by the leader of whatever country and you will find NLP all over the place. Their speach writers have excelled at NLP. It's just mindboggling to know how much NLP is out there and one doesn't even know it unless one practices NLP!! So, in other words to the original poster of this thread I would suggest: Know your enemy!! You are being used and don't even know it!! Why did you go buy that new car, those new tennis shoes??? NLP instigated you to. That's why!!! Ones that really stick in my brain are Toyota and Nikie. A nice voice singing "buy Toyota". The only thing they left off was the word NOW!! Yeah, and if you wear Nikies you will be just like Tiger Woods! Everything is bigger, better, more improved, etc., etc. Right!!! Ohhhhh, Pood

[betlamed]

Oh, but Poodle, how dare you! Knowing your enemy is potentially a very dangerous thing indeed. You see, I happen to know a certain guy who set out to explore this enemy two years ago, and now he's actually considering to go all the way and learn NLP thoroughly, to then go even further and use it in whatever strange job this path of change, constant development and learning will lead him to! Intimate knowledge is every xenophobe's worst foe.... which is why I usually advise antisemites to take a few classes in the science of judaism at the local university. :-)

bl

[Gypsy trickster]

I have to agree with Mr Unregistered here. You guys who make money out of it? Spivs. Smooth talking bull**** artists saying what people want to here.

Bandlers a Subgenius. The whole cult of the Subgenius is about ripping people off. Blindly following a conmans methods makes you a conman, self delusion or no.

It's a pity, because there's probably a few gems in all this stinking sh1t.

The quicker it gets put in the same catergory as mediums and confidence tricksters the better.

(And don't bother responding with 'ah, your words imply this or that', that kind of self-gratifying nonsense doesn't even fool a chimp.)

[Don]

Sounds to me, Gypsy Trickster, that you're a grey pretending to be a pink.

[Alonso]

His seminars are a con, you can't teach people how to do hypnosis in a couple of days. When you go to a seminar and he's laughing half of the time, it's because he knows every good point he tries to make is crap, he can't teach this stuff so fast, it will just come out bad. But he's a hypnotist so he has a nice voice and stories and that's why people go to his seminars. Besides, he saw the greatest seminars in history, Milton Erickson's, so he just figures out he could do a couple of these and still be relevant.

Damn, but Milton Erickson held open discussions with a board of professionals every day for a couple of hours and he was much more relevant than Richard Bandler, I would think (in statistical terms).

[Gypsy trickster]

Sounds to me, Gypsy Trickster, that you're a grey pretending to be a pink.
Quiet now or I'll set the Yeti on you.

[Poodle]

Don't hold anything back now -- let it all out. Now, don't you feel much better. NLP is far from a load of crap and if you would find a good school and learn it and the myriad ways it can and does help people, you just might change your mind very quickly. I am a very skilled hypnotist (although not to the extent of the moderators of this forum) and I use a lot of NLP in my practice especially in building rapport as it can take a potentially difficult client to the easiest client in the world. I can't even remember if Parts Integration falls under NLP or hypnosis as the two are so merged in my mind but it is powerful! Believe me. If you have not experienced it, you have absolutely no idea what you are writing about.

Even NLP 101 (anchoring) is an extremely therapeutic useful tool. This I think is taught on about the first day. Learn before you judge. It really is hard to judge a book by its cover.