View Full Version : Past, present & future all in one place?
My son has no time "line". He says everything is together there in front of him.
And yes, he has problems. He has difficulty throwing anything away. A car that doesn't work has been in the yard for almost 2 years now. Another one sits in the garage going on about 7 years. There's a braided rag rug that is torn and part of it missing that sits in the corner. It had belonged to my Mother,(deceased since 1990). He also has one of her sweaters. There is a patchwork coverlet that I had on the couch - worn & torn that he rescued from the trash the other day. He has never had gainful employment.
I could go on and on........
We have many, many NLP books and he reads them till they fall apart from use. He can talk about the subject matter, but can't seem to put it to use on himself.
Comments please.
Docresults
05-26-2007, 07:17 PM
Five,
I'm curious does your son perceive he has problems or is it other people that perceives it that way.
No one has a time line, we all make them up. What might happen if your son pretended to have a time line... which direction would the past be in and which direction would the future be in? How would that feel and would he say that feels right?
Since your son is the Meaning Maker... How about where would your son like to have his time line, where would he like to have his past and where would he like to have his future and how would that feel?
To Your Best,
Doc
P.S. What would happen if he started creating multi-time-lines for himself?
Doc makes a great point: you see your son's behavior as a problem. Perhaps others also see it that way. But what does your son think? We have no way of knowing. That's why we don't make diagnoses of one person based on what is said by another.
This isn't meant as an insult in any way. We just don't have enough information to give you a reasonable answer. We could each make ten guesses about it and everyone might be wrong. There's just no way we can say.
However there is one thing I can say: You could read 10,000 books on NLP and know everything about it. That doesn't mean you can use it appropriately. I mean just because I watch all three CSI shows and NCIS doesn't mean I can go out and solve crimes! The knowledge is valuable, but you also need training and experience, and you don't get that by watching TV or reading books.
Poodle
05-27-2007, 12:53 PM
Time lines. I loved multiple timelines as using different ones for different purposes and then I read about having a 360 degree time line. Way kewl!!
Merlin
05-27-2007, 01:47 PM
1-RE timelines.
It sounds like lack of skill iliciting timelines.
2- the problem. who is it has the problem?
Yes, he thinks he has a problem, that's why he reads all these books.
I'm just not sure what he thinks that problem is. He's not very communicative.
Other people see him as weird. Some of them thought he was mentally retarded, which he isn't. He has no friends. He's lucky the man he works for seldom sees him, and still likes him. He could work all day, but he does not even leave the house till about 12 & Generally puts in about 4 hours a day. He's 47 years old.
About 20+ years ago I had sent him to 2 different NLP counsellors. He would quit going as soon as they suggested to him that he look for a job.
I suggested to him that he go to trade school and learn a trade, any trade, but he wouldn't do that. He didn't like any of the trades. So he is a handyman at a horse farm. And only because I was going to take his car away if he didn't work.
He just seems to have dug himself into a hole and doesn't want to come out.
Thanks for the suggestions. I think that if he developed a sense of time in a line he could better organize himself.
Merlin
05-27-2007, 04:20 PM
The problem, five, is that these skills are not mind control.
If he wants help, help is available, but we cant really force it on him.
Hi, Five.
You see, here is the problem: You say one thing which you think is what we need to know. We say we don't know other things and you give more information. But it is still not enough. We don't diagnose in absentia or without working directly with a client. We can make general observations, but they may have no relation to a specific person.
You wrote that you "think that if he developed a sense of time in a line he could better organize himself." Maybe. I don't know. You say that others see him as "weird." Heck, just ask anybody here--they know I'm weird! But then, I don't even know what you mean by "weird," and that may only be your subjective interpretation and not the objective reality.
Merlin is also correct: we can't force him to change. You sent him to NLP counselors and their first advice was to get a job? Hmmm. I'd question their NLP credentials, myself. I'm not a NLPer, but I do know they focus on how to change, not simply telling someone to change.
I'm not an MD or psychologist. However, from your limited description, it is possible that there is far more to his problem than simply being better organized. From your description he might have clinical depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or even some more serious problems. I would respectfully suggest that he be directed to a psychologist or psychiatrist. If they do not think there is any problem, an NLPer can help him make major changes in his life if he wants to make them.
Yes, I realize that you cannot make diagnosis without seeing the person. Generalizations based on what I have written are fine.
In as much as he does have problems, I thought that working from the time line could be key to helping him to get his mind in order.
I have never directly asked him just exactly what changes he would like to make in himself.
As to "weird", he's asocial. Presently pretty much of a hermit. I don't even see him much, he stays in his room. He has a big Tv, he bought a refrigerator and a hot plate, so he's made his bedroom into an apartment.
It is a big room with it's own bathroom. And he has a cat. He seldom kills anything. For a long time there was a big spider had a web in the corner of the ceiling near his chair. If he finds a roach he will try to catch it and then he takes it outside. When he was 2 years old he got upset because I smashed a mosquito. I'm a murderer because I put poison on the fireant mounds. He rescued a nest of baby rats and tried to feed them. Fortunately they died. I trap them and kill them. He bought a live trap, so he can catch them with plans to release them down near the farm. :rolleyes:
I think he's kind of weird myself.
I'd thought his councellor's advice to get a job was premature and they should have pumped up the motivation first.
Connie
05-27-2007, 08:17 PM
My 2-cents! Some of the behavior you describe sounds perfectly non-problematic to me! Specifically, I'm referring to the desire to hold on to objects that belonged to loved ones who are no longer with us. What's wrong with that? So, he has his grandmother's sweater! That's sweet, that he values that. I have a sweater that my mother knitted and wore. Now I wear it! I don't see anything "Norman Bates"-ish about it. It's a way to keep her close in my heart--and show off the beauty of what she created.
Needadvice
05-27-2007, 08:59 PM
Yes, I realize that you cannot make diagnosis without seeing the person. Generalizations based on what I have written are fine.
In as much as he does have problems, I thought that working from the time line could be key to helping him to get his mind in order.
I have never directly asked him just exactly what changes he would like to make in himself.
As to "weird", he's asocial. Presently pretty much of a hermit. I don't even see him much, he stays in his room. He has a big Tv, he bought a refrigerator and a hot plate, so he's made his bedroom into an apartment.
It is a big room with it's own bathroom. And he has a cat. He seldom kills anything. For a long time there was a big spider had a web in the corner of the ceiling near his chair. If he finds a roach he will try to catch it and then he takes it outside. When he was 2 years old he got upset because I smashed a mosquito. I'm a murderer because I put poison on the fireant mounds. He rescued a nest of baby rats and tried to feed them. Fortunately they died. I trap them and kill them. He bought a live trap, so he can catch them with plans to release them down near the farm. :rolleyes:
I think he's kind of weird myself.
I'd thought his councellor's advice to get a job was premature and they should have pumped up the motivation first.
I don't kill anything untill there is absolutely no other way either. Is it really that weird?
Needadvice
05-27-2007, 09:25 PM
and a fridge in the bedroom, kinda nice idea too. CSI Miami is more interestimg than talking to most people. And here is a cold drink, here you go.
Merlin
05-28-2007, 10:43 AM
This forum section is specifically about time line (tm) therapy, although other NLP timeline methods come into play.
Have you any specific TLT training?
Five, as you can see from the posts, here, many of the things you considered "weird" others do not consider so weird at all. In India, there is an honored religious group, the Jains. They use a leaves to sweep the ground before them so they don't accidentally step on an insect. Many people choose to be vegetarians so they don't eat any animals or cause their deaths. So such an attitude is not weird, it's normal.
There are some large meetings (1000s of people) I attend (to give workshops) where I am fairly well known. Even when I'm not giving a workshop I am bombarded by people who want me to help them solve their problems or tell me their answer to solve all the world's woes (and get my help to do it) or just talk to me. I can understand your son's desire to hide out.
As I wrote, perhaps working with time lines will help your son, perhaps not. It's absolutely impossible to tell. Perhaps he is actually perfectly happy and his reading of NLP is to give him clues as to how to encourage other people.
For a moment, let me deal with another issue. Your son has a TV, refrigerator, a hot plate, and a private room. He has a private bathroom. That's more than most people in the world. Frankly, I know many people who would love such luxury!
On the other hand, you have some ideas in your head about what he should be doing and how he should be living. I know you only want the best for him, and my guess is that you've either told him what you'd like or tried to do so on more than one occasion.
From what you've expressed here--and again, this is a guess based on a tiny bit of information exemplifying why we don't do diagnoses from a distance--the only real problem I see is that you had expectations of what your son should be and what he should do, and now that he is not doing it, you are unsatisfied and unhappy.
There are many possibilities here. Your desires for him may be surrogates for what you wish you could have done and your feelings are a sort of anger at yourself for not accomplishing your youthful desires. You may simply feel frustrated at not being able to get him to be all you'd like him to be. It could be a bunch of other things, too.
So I would suggest that you consider taking training in NLP yourself! It will help you to communicate your desires more effectively to him. It will help you better understand the nature of your desires. Even better, why don't you both take the training? Working together like that might establish some quality bonding and increase mutual understanding.
How to approach it? "Son, I see you've been reading books on NLP so I did some research on it. It sounds fascinating. How about you and me taking an NLP training?"
The family that trains together stays together? Maybe...
Poodle
05-28-2007, 01:28 PM
Maybe there could be some "Milton" therapy in there - get a job, get married, have children and send me nice presents. Pood :D
How come YOU get all the nice presents?
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Poodle
05-29-2007, 02:26 PM
I DEMAND THEM for the remainder of my life. :D
NothingButAName
06-05-2007, 06:33 AM
Maybe he's not weird, maybe he's just unique, what is normal anyways?
What if he were not lazy, but only a master of relaxing?
could he possibly teach you how to change yourself instead of someone else?
how much are you enabling him to keep this view about himself?
what if you seen him another way would it better help him to see it also?
My 2-cents
Yes Don, I really am disappointed that he failed to use his inherent talents.
I had expectations that he would do like most people - get out in the world and earn a living for himself.
No, he is not a happy man. He has those deep anger creases between his eyes.
And yes, he has the luxury of his private place - with all expenses paid by yours truly here.
Angry at myself?: only to the extent that I am lost as to what I could have done to influence him to be self reliant, or what I could do now so that he will be prepared when I leave this planet.
I think all my youthful desires were fulfilled. Long story. I left home at 23, came to Florida, had a great social life, and found my career, which made it possible for me to buy this boy cars (so he could go to work), pay for his insurance and house him in comfort.
Am I enabling him?; Yes. The only way I could have broken that would have been to have him bodily removed from my house, and have a restraining order to keep him from coming back.
I'm 78 years old, and it is becoming difficult to still have a dependent child.
For us to take NLP training together is a bit out of the price range I could reasonably handle.
He is interested in one of those on line courses. I think they run about $600. Does anyone have any opinions about them?
I have been working with the timeline on myself, and find it to be a very workable method. Past annoyances came up that I had long forgotten. I don't always get what it was that I learned from them.
Again, thanks for the input.
Regards, Five
Docresults
06-07-2007, 02:35 PM
He is interested in one of those on line courses. I think they run about $600. Does anyone have any opinions about them?
Five,
From the information you have shared with us on the list glaringly has me ask regardless of the on-line course (regardless of any self-study), who is going to hold your son responsible for himself and/or what he's learning from taking the on-line course, etc?
I'm all for any type of study on-line or otherwise and in your son's case if he can come up with the money (outside of parents) go for it if he has systems in place that will hold him responsible and accountable.
My suspension from what you have written, it is not mental study your son will benefit most from. He will benefit most from some type of learning that changes his emotive decisions and give him emotional control.
To Your Best,
Doc Houston
Henrik
06-07-2007, 03:15 PM
Yes Don, I really am disappointed that he failed to use his inherent talents.
One inherent talent, and in my opinion the most important one, is the ability to be happy. From what you have written it sounds like your son is not happy. When did he stop being happy? He can be happy again, fulfilling that talent.
I had expectations that he would do like most people - get out in the world and earn a living for himself.
That sounds like a reasonable expectation. And from my point of view is an expression of your love to your son. That you wish the best for him.
No, he is not a happy man. He has those deep anger creases between his eyes.
From what you have written I believe you. Spotting if someone is happy and content is often a doable task...
Angry at myself?: only to the extent that I am lost as to what I could have done to influence him to be self reliant, or what I could do now so that he will be prepared when I leave this planet.
It sounds like you have tried doing your best and still are doing your best. Can you expect to do more than that?
He is interested in one of those on line courses. I think they run about $600. Does anyone have any opinions about them?
From what you have written I believe your son will be much better off with someone skilled helping him. Face to face. As have been said by many, your son must have a wish and desire to change. You say he read all these NLP-books and are interested in an online course. That indicates to me that there is at least a possibility he want change.
I have been working with the timeline on myself, and find it to be a very workable method.
Sometimes it's nice and comfortable to let others choose which tools to use. And let someone who is the best guide the work. And sit back and just relax, knowing that you didn't have to reinvent the wheel all by yourself. After all.
All the best Five,
Henrik
Hi, Five.
Now I'm getting two things from you. First, that he has problems. But second, that you are feeling guilt, anger, disappointment, etc. with yourself over this.
From a hypnotherapeutic point of view, I want you to know that you did not do anything wrong. You did the absolute best you could with your background, training and skills. There is absolutely nothing you could have done, at the time, any differently. So I would say, "don't be so hard on yourself!"
Next, I would respectfully suggest putting your focus in a different place: right now, you're focusing on him and what you've "done" to him. My suggestion is that he is not the only person suffering. You are, too.
Therefore, I would propose to you that you get into some sort of therapy, including possibly NLP or hypnotherapy. State your limits--you're not going to throw him out on the street--and ask for assistance. I have no doubt they can help you feel better about yourself and give you some better tools to help him achieve more in his life.
You might even want to go together with him. It can make your relationship more balanced and positive.
Good luck!
Poodle
06-09-2007, 09:38 PM
Certain objects bring back wonderful memories. I have some things of my Grandmother's. It's not a desire to go into the past but just a pleasant thought of what a lovely lady she was and fun too. If I had been able to get there sooner, I would have more. Pood
We sell fudge, to the touristas, at my orchard.
One flavor is creamsicle. It tastes exactly like creamsicle ice cream.
Everytime I taste it, I am 'taken' straight back to second grade, sitting in the cafeteria, eating my favorite childhood ice cream.
Such a powerful anchor! Especially if I allow myself to go with it, for a bit. Nice age regression!!!!! The high school girls who I hire as seasonal employees all say I look younger when I eat it.
Hell I feel younger too.
Now tell me that is a bad thing!
cheers,
skip
I have to confess I am not a great fan of Timeline simply because it seems to be much like old fashioned regression with graphics, so why call it something else.
I am however a great fan of anchors. Skip's creamsickle, whatever that is, is a great anchor, old clothing is a great anchor, in fact practically everything is some kind of anchor to some kind of experience at some time.
How about this possibility? I don't believe that your son has any problems that you can help him out with and keep the status quo. He has one great anchor and he has made it you. Maybe.
You are his anchor to this behaviour. It is comfortable behaviour for him because he does not have to do anything unpleasant to get it. There is no way he will give up this behaviour since he cannot imagine any other behaviour that would be as satisfying and as easy. None of this is your fault. And in a way it is not his fault either.
This is making you feel bad. You are disappointed in him and have reflected this disappointment back and are blaming yourself in ways I could not possibly comprehend.
The only answer is to remove yourself from him for a time and leave him to find a new behaviour on his own as a middle-aged man. Can you do this? Perhaps not. Should you do this? I have no idea.
But this is only a possibility. It is not true yet and may never be.There are hundreds of possibilities, all different, and reading books on NLP, doing courses or any other self help methodology will not, in my honest opinion, help either of you.
Someone else needs to be involved. That is why you are on this forum to involve someone else, but we are the wrong someone elses. The someone else you need may be a professional hypnotherapist, counsellor or psychologist but should have a physical presence to both of you.
Then, if either of you decide that you need to change you can do it without misunderstanding, blame, guilt and all of those other unnecessary emotions.
As therapist of 34 years standing I can tell you some good news.
When everything has failed there are still possibilities. Go find someone else.
Best wishes,
Jack
I have to confess I am not a great fan of Timeline simply because it seems to be much like old fashioned regression with graphics, so why call it something else.
Jack
Jack, I am trained in both TLT and Regression work (including PLR), and I would respectfully say that although they worth with events that occurred in the past, the methodologies are really quite different.
Terry
09-25-2007, 08:59 PM
Five perhaps I am alone in seeing something in your posts that others have not commented on. "enabler"...
Now to some, that is a nasty name, while to others it just shows that love without controls is a bad thing for the recipient... Your son is doing what he chooses, since nobody makes him act as he does, yet in spite of that he is unhappy. You also are unhappy, yet continue along the same vein expecting to arrive at some happy conclusion by accident it would seem. Surely there is something wrong with BOTH of you? Straight talk is advisable here and now. If you should die, which is likely long before he does, he is left without support, and in a situation beyond his understanding or control... Not a nice prospect is it?
My advise, forget studying anything, be it time line, hypnosis, or any other system, they won't work for your son. Kick his sorry ass until he gets a full time job, or moves out and lives on the streets. Know what? He will not let that happen, he will get a job, and once you have achieved that goal, put him on Vitamin D for depression, and support his efforts to change just as you now do his inertia. It is the duty of the children to support their parents, or at least not be a drain in them...
I am a skilled practitioner of hypnosis, but also an old and I hope wise man, of vast experience. I don;t study "Hypnosis" I study people and speak from that point of view now. My F.A.S grandson was in that same place, but I refused to let him be inferior to others, and now he is not only employed, but loves the job, and even more important, loves the people he works with, so very different from previous experiences.
We both love this child very much, but like you my wife was an enabler, and this retarded the desired change, so you can see I speak from experience, not for book reading.......
Far too many people look to the sciences for their needs instead of good old fashioned common sense, and it grieves me to see this dependance..
Your son is no different from others, he is just stuck in "stop" so is lacking the get up and go, most people have who want something more from life, and are willing to work to get it. Are you going to keep your foot on the brake, or will you push the accelerator and help him move on?
Jack, I am trained in both TLT and Regression work (including PLR), and I would respectfully say that although they worth with events that occurred in the past, the methodologies are really quite different.
I think the similarities - in my experience - are greater than the differences, but what do you think the major differences are?
Jack
Poodle
09-26-2007, 12:08 PM
The main differences are: client does not have to live through negative event AGAIN. Once was more than sufficient.
TLT is a combination of NLP and hypnosis. In all respect, I don't believe you make your clients walk around a room to specific places nor are your clients in somnambulism for "above" nor "totally alert" when on the ground.
Just a couple of "minor" differences. Also in hypnosis we do not HEAL while TLT has Healing Interventions.
I personally prefer and use Dr. Bandler's version of time line work. It's quick and easy and works on the premise that the client's uc mind knows much more than we ever will so it is allowed to take care of the undesired in ways that suit it. I have personally found the uc mind to be absolutely totally resourceful in all situations when it is allowed.
NOTE TO VIEWERS: Time Line Therapy and Time Line Essence are basically the same concept.
Some TLT break through sessions do take 8 hours.
Pood
Poodle, in the training I've received, and in the practice I've done, hypnotic regression does not require an associative experience either, however it usually begins that way. Often, the associative experience in regression is positive and does not require action on the hypnotist's part to help a client dissociate.
Other differences between regression and TLT:
1) TLT does not require a formal induction or trance
2) Regression to cause usually assumes cause has been reached until goals are not met outside of the therapeutic environment
3) TLT checks to make sure actual cause is reached before actual therapy and after supposed resolution of cause.
4) TLT checks all fugal points influenced by cause between cause and present, in the present, and even, through visualization and imagination, into the future.
I would say, that rather than look at the differences, it's easier to look at the similarities between regression and TLT. As far as I can tell, there is really only two:
1) They assume that cause is in the past
2) They assume working in the past will resolve unwanted current behavior/attitudes
The methodology and technology to achieve the second assumption, in my experience, are quite different.
Poodle
09-26-2007, 01:08 PM
From what I know of many hypnotists/hypnotherapists, they do not use submodalities. TLT is a LEARNING process while hypnosis is not. The Outcome is in NLP Terminology.
Also in TLT. we believe a problem has "presenting problems" which have many examples.
Mine is somewhat dated as it is from '95 and has probably gone through some revisions in over 10 years.
It reminds me of a student that was at a recent NLP Prac training complaining that "they did not explain associated/disassociated". I told the person to forget about what was read in books as it's ALL IN THE LANGUAGE. Pood
Thanks for that Don and Pood. I agree with you Don that hypnotic regressions does not require causal event association and may not even require direct reference in any obvious way to that event. In my experience the subconscious is quite capable of deciding which events can be dealt with 'in-house' and which can be exposed to experiential examination.
1) TLT does not require a formal induction or trance
That is perhaps a moot point in that NLP does not supposedly require either but all indications are that the sc has to be bypassed for NLP to be effective.
2) Regression to cause usually assumes cause has been reached until goals are not met outside of the therapeutic environment
That is true to some extent, but in my own practice no-one leaves without an ecological check, as I suspect is the case with most other hypnotherapists.
3) TLT checks to make sure actual cause is reached before actual therapy and after supposed resolution of cause.
Does not regression do the same? Agaiin, it is probably down to individual practices but what ethical hypnotherapist would begin to treat for a supposed causal event without fully checking that it was the causal event?
4) TLT checks all fugal points influenced by cause between cause and present, in the present, and even, through visualization and imagination, into the future.
This may be a real difference, perhaps not in substance but in methodology. The regression to cause I practice allows the sc to find all relevant events using visualisation and imagination without the necessity for me to know exactly what or where they are. Future pacing, although not part of hisorical regression technique is commonly used by most hypnotherpists today. In fact I often use the graphic idea of a 'road' stretching into the future and progress clients along it until their outcomes are clear to them.
Jack
Poodle
09-27-2007, 03:01 PM
NLP does not necessarily induce trance. It depends totally upon which aspects (techniques) one is using. Hopefully, I am now stating for the very last time that NLP is NOT therapy. It has some therapeutic aspects but that would be like saying a paragraph is an entire novel. NLP is much, much larger and greater than some techniques. One Master Trainer I met uses the words: Other Than Conscious Communication. I really like those words as they do say a lot about NLP as not all communication is conscious and most of it is not; however, it does not necessarily include association/disassociation. It's just from the basic NLP Presup that "we cannot not communicate".
For the record: Tad does not use an officially induced trance in TLT but I do. I don't teach that subject as I teach Bandler's so I am allowed to do as I wish with my clients and so are you! ;) Pood
Yes, I like 'other than'. But I prefer 'all of it'.;)
Jack